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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#771

Post by riffraff »

pyuser583 wrote: post #750
riffraff wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but things can change to make the OK sign tabu too, can't they? We are saying that if you use a potentially racist sign (hand OK) in real life it's not a big deal, since you're not using it in conjunction with other racist stuff. At the same time you cannot use another potentially racist sign (the confederate flag), even if you were just trying to make a videogame version of "The Dukes of Hazzard" and are not trying…

So all racists have to do is adopt something as a “inside” symbol, then publicly advertise its “real” meaning, and everyone rushes to avoid it no matter how common it is. I could see white supremecists doing this for fun.

yeah, it seems we've ended up giving too much power to hate groups instead of reclaiming their symbols.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#773

Post by Phylter »

soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

As the world becomes more authoritarian what these platforms do to censor on their own won't matter. Governments will mandate whatever they want in the future regardless of what platforms do today.

I totally get what you're saying though, it's the tyranny of the majority. What happens if the majority of people decide to censor the truth of history because it's not politically correct? What happens if they decide that the confederate flag and what it stands for needs to be stricken from the history books?

These things should not be glorified but should be remembered so we don't tread the same horrible road again against some other group of people. But glorifying it is kind of what they're trying to prevent now by removing it from games.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#774

Post by toast0 »

bastawhiz wrote: post #666
Rebelgecko wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a good faith claim that everyone using one of the banned symbols is a racist 1. The current flag of Japan is based off of one of the banned symbols 2. Probably the most famous car in pop culture uses one of the banned symbols. Microsoft has gone as far as banning parodies of the General Lee that have none of the controversial symbols[0] If the flag of imperial Japan was banned due to its associatio…

The origins of a symbol are mostly pointless, it's the intent of its use. It's a hard argument to say that everyone form Japan is a racist because their flag is based on a banned symbol. The confederacy existed _because of racism_. Its only purpose (and continued purpose) is to identify with a movement founded solely on the basis of hate.

> Its only purpose (and continued purpose) is to identify with a movement founded solely on the basis of hate.

If you care about intent:

I would guess a large cohort of confederate battle flags in race car games are on orange dodge chargers, with the intent of looking like the car on a show centering around the escapades of cousins trying to fight the corrupt county sheriff and county commissioner.

I don't know the intent behind putting it on the car in the show; but the intent of putting it on a car that looks like the car in the show is to identify with the show.

Anybody doing that today is at least a little insensitive and clueless, but that doesn't mean their intent was to actually identify with the confederacy (although, I guess there probably are some people who do intend such affiliation).

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#775

Post by themacguffinman »

ars wrote: post #769
themacguffinman wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because, despite attempts to rewrite history, until recently most people did not know that flag was racist. I find this extremely unbelievable. The American Civil War is a milestone in American history that has been taught in schools for a long time. Most people, despite attempts to rewrite history, know that the Confederacy fought for the right to own black slaves.

That's true, but most people don't realize the flag is a symbol of slavery, they just think it's a symbol of the South. For example take a state flag from a rebel state (and assume the flag has not changed since the civil war). If someone flew that flag today, would you think they are implying state rebellion, or just pride in their state? It's the same with the confederate flag, to most people it's just a flag that…

A state flag can be ambiguous because it refers to a state, which is an ambiguous entity with a long and varied history.

The Confederate States of America (CSA) is not an ambiguous entity. From beginning to end in its short 5 year history, it was made to fight for black slavery. It existed for no other purpose and was subsequently disbanded when slavery was abolished. Literally the only heritage the CSA created in its short life is rebellion and racism.

If you are aware of this widely-known history, it's obvious what this flag narrowly represents. The argument that the CSA could conceivably represent Southern pride is a joke. Ask any non-racist southerner if the most racist institution in US history and its deepest shame is a good stand-in for Southern pride.

Here's a thought experiment: if a group of Germans claimed that the flag of the German Reich represented their pride in Germany's independence and the valor of its veterans, would you be defending it like you are now? Would you use the same excuses?

I can accept that some people may be completely unaware or are too dim to put 2 and 2 together. I simply expect that once they do learn about it, they understand why it's indefensible.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#776

Post by toast0 »

krapp wrote: post #738
6nf wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s WHY I’m opposed to it: because it doesn’t work. It just annoys people but it doesn’t actually work.

If censorship is merely annoying, but otherwise ineffective, why do people keep portraying every act of moderation that any site performs as a slippery slope towards global Orwellian dystopia? Why are people worried about cancel culture and "SJWs" and the "Left" purging conservative voices and "erasing history?" Why are some adamant that we need to have the government force all platforms to allow all forms of speech…

Censorship is pretty good at suppressing the words or images that are being suppressed. It's not very good at suppressing the thoughts or feelings that are considered wrong.

Nazi symbols are banned in Germany, but they still have neo-Nazis.

It's unfortunate when artistic works have a banned symbol and so the work is suppressed, and that art becomes hard to obtain and difficult to discuss with others.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#777

Post by SamReidHughes »

timsally wrote: post #765
torstenvl wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't. They chose the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia because of widespread admiration of Lee, who, while no abolitionist, called slavery a political and moral evil; who insisted on reconciliation after the war and rejected Lost Cause mythology; and who called upon Southerners to vow loyalty to the United States. There's a reason they chose Lee's flag and not a CSA flag associated directly with a r…

It is the flag flown by an armed group that killed soldiers in the United States Army, is it not? [1] This fact gets lost in the debate. No American should fly the flag of any group that targeted and killed members of the United States Armed Forces. [1] https://history.army.mil/books/R&H/R&H-FM.htm , Section VI with Ulysses Simpson Grant as part of the unbroken chain of command.

They were defending themselves against invasion by the U.S. Army.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Post by [deleted] »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #475
shultays wrote: post #265

Interestingly hammer and sickle is not in the list

I think mainstream historians would argue that Soviet Communism was terrible - but it wasn't an ideology based on hate or subjugation. Displaying the Hammer and Sickle likely means you stand for unity with the working-class and seek an egalitarian society - or you have grievances with the current system of capitalism - and not that you hate on any particular group of people, and especially not for any of their immuta…

[deleted]

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#779

Post by Aerroon »

flippinburgers wrote: post #753
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a really odd social phenomenon. It's one thing to say "We don't like X and find it in poor taste. Please don't do that" I don't like it when folks say such things, but I understand it. Instead, what many folks seem to be saying is that based on one thing they can tell what the person is like inside . It's an amazingly-broad generalization and people seem to be enormously confident of themselves when they make it…

I have a pet theory that this resonates with people that enjoy the simplicity of the puritanical thought patterns and approaches being taken by the (far?) left. Unsurprisingly it fits the terse, inflammatory nature of twitter to the T. I cannot relate with it.

I think the political side isn't even important. A lot of the behavioral patterns we see in the social justice left is what we saw with the religious right a few decades ago. I'd say it's more about adopting popular values from people around you without understanding why these values are important. It's very much like religion in this sense.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#780

Post by Aerroon »

breakbread wrote: post #649
donmcronald wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first time I've heard of that. I can just imagine being somewhere loud and giving the ok / perfect symbol to a friend across the room and then being called a racist. Damn, that's scary.

My wife is a high school teacher and, until we had our first child, was also the swim team coach. Early last year she made a kid run laps after he low key photo-bombed the team picture by making the "Ok" symbol on one of his thighs. Then she gets an angry text message from the kid's mother who believed her son was being punished specifically for making the "ok" symbol. This woman had found a picture of my wife on Fac…

>Then she gets an angry text message from the kid's mother who believed her son was being punished specifically for making the "ok" symbol.

Based on what you said, isn't that exactly what happened? This paragraph makes it seem like your wife was punishing him for making that sign:

>Early last year she made a kid run laps after he low key photo-bombed the team picture by making the "Ok" symbol on one of his thighs.

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