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MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

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Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#741

Post by [deleted] »

undersuit wrote: post #594
skinkestek wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bloke (and a less privileged bloke at that, 75% non white according to himself) was recently fired because someone had shot a photo of him resting his hand out the window of a company truck in what lpoked line an OK hand. It was discussed here a few days ago. Stop firing the innocent or something, from the Atlantic.

One person being fired doesn't prove anything. The person who took the video is even upset that he accidentally hurt the person he was videoing.

[deleted]

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#742

Post by jhanschoo »

sukilot wrote: post #309
rsynnott wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume Microsoft never allowed, say, swastikas. There's no reasonable expectation that you are able to spread racist propaganda in a car racing game (or for that matter in an actual car race; I think those tend to have very strict rules around decoration). I can see an _argument_ that Twitter, say, should be forced to pander to racists. I don't buy that argument, mind you, but I can at least see the thought process…

That's an argument for banning swastikas, not banning anyone who displays a swastika. And before you say "come on, swastikas are pretty extreme", remember the moral panic we just went through when 4chan trolls convinced people that the OK hand sign was a "one-sided version ofna White Power" sign and got people fired from their jobs for making the sign.

This is assuming that the internal policy is "we ban any symbol thought to be racist", vs. ""we ban symbols clearly established over years to be racist".

That is, swastikas and the confederate flag have an established history of their meaning, whereas the 4chan sign does not.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#743

Post by tasogare »

egypturnash wrote: post #612
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nazi flag is inarguably racist propaganda. The Confederate flag, however, has for decades been a symbol of southern pride for many people. I read somewhere recently that over 40% see it as a symbol of heritage more than racism.

Hello. I am a white lady born and raised in the South. Flying the Confederate flag is a sign to anyone else from the South that you are probably a racist. I would bet money that there is a strong correlation between “people who say it is a symbol of heritage” and “people who display the CSA flag”, because very few people are willing to come out and say “fuck yeah I am totally a racist and proud of it!”. As a bonus, I…

> “people who say it is a symbol of heritage and/or display it” and “people who are not white” is virtually nonexistant.

This isn’t surprising. An heritage is well, an heritage, which is coming from ancestors. Only very few people get to aquire culture heritage accross race boundaries (for example by adoption). It’s like saying the overlap of "people who celebrate Chinese new year" and "people who are not asian" is virtually non-existent to shame them; this make no sense.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#744

Post by _y5hn »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #478
_y5hn wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was the problem needing solving?

Depends who you ask. Some might say toxic expressions. Others might say people who declaim toxic expressions. Clearly MS has the latter goal in mind. I can imagine a very reasonable argument for this. Someone who puts a Confederate flag on their car seems highly likely to engage in other toxic behaviors. Just like someone who calls someone a nigger once is likely to do it again. So we use the behaviors as a signal of…

This explanation really creeps me out, if major corps can just do about anything, based on any arbitrary rule ie. RND() or even own biases and legal discrimination.

On the other hand, too many on gaming platforms are engaging in clearly racist behaviour, ie. choosing offensive nicks, spamming chat, and need correction.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#745

Post by torstenvl »

rayiner wrote: post #397
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never been to a southern state? It's been flown ever since the war and has been detached from the war and attached to southern identity. It's part of the culture here.

That begs the question. Why did southerners pick the battle flag of the war they fought to preserve slavery as the symbol for "southern identity?"

They didn't. They chose the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia because of widespread admiration of Lee, who, while no abolitionist, called slavery a political and moral evil; who insisted on reconciliation after the war and rejected Lost Cause mythology; and who called upon Southerners to vow loyalty to the United States.

There's a reason they chose Lee's flag and not a CSA flag associated directly with a rabid slaver like Jefferson Davis. Indeed, the Army of Northern Virginia flag used to be a symbol of progressive racial integration, at a time when poor white southern migrant workers and poor African Americans found common cause against unfair wages and unsafe working conditions.

https://consortiumnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/8gvw5g...

https://images-theconversation-com.cdn.ampproject.org/i/s/im...

History is nuanced. Insisting that your view of what a symbol means should control others is toxic and Orwellian. Our society should be better than that.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#746

Post by torstenvl »

losvedir wrote: post #691
triceratops wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not adopt a new symbol of Southern pride? Something with pickup trucks and horses, steers and cowboy hats, peaches and iced tea, guns and saxophones. You know, all the beloved and positive aspects of Southern culture and heritage. It seems very un-American to me to use the flag of a treasonous rebel army that attacked their fellow countrymen.

Ten bucks says whatever new symbol gets used will be (considered?) a de facto racist symbol within a couple years.

I'm just waiting for everyone to realize that the immensely popular Texas "lone star flag" was also associated with the CSA.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#747

Post by R0b0t1 »

soraminazuki wrote: post #221

While it's emotionally pleasing to see racists being kicked out of online platforms, another side of me feels wary of these tactics. For starters, being deplatformed from major online players today would have serious consequences. Although it's true that these platforms are "private property," the entire society has become too reliant on them to be seen that way. I think it's dangerous when platforms function like a…

There are laws in some states where squares or common areas of apartment buildings are considered public for the purposes of speech, etc. I think we will eventually see this gravitate online.

One case heard was about an apartment complex which made up some absurd percentage of a district. If people were barred from distributing fliers it would have seriously upset campaigning in that district.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#748

Post by soraminazuki »

tptacek wrote: post #740
soraminazuki wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not only games that are doing this, and that was only part of my argument about the potential impact it has.

This is a story about a race car game.

Which is part of a broader trend. I also don't find the "it's just a game" argument convincing either. Just take a look at how Reporters without Borders use Minecraft to evade censorship in opressive regimes. For-profit companies would be happy to censor these types of content too if the mechanism exists and are given free reign without any sort of oversight.

https://uncensoredlibrary.com/en

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#749

Post by tptacek »

soraminazuki wrote: post #748
tptacek wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a story about a race car game.

Which is part of a broader trend. I also don't find the "it's just a game" argument convincing either. Just take a look at how Reporters without Borders use Minecraft to evade censorship in opressive regimes. For-profit companies would be happy to censor these types of content too if the mechanism exists and are given free reign without any sort of oversight. https://uncensoredlibrary.com/en

Minecraft is also a video game. You are equating video games with public utilities.

Re: MS will ban Forza players who add the confederate flag to their digital cars

#750

Post by pyuser583 »

riffraff wrote: post #608
FireBeyond wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's what you got out of this, I'm not sure what to say. I even used the SCUBA shop, which is next door, for reference. No-one that I've seen has advocated that the OK sign be abandoned for divers. I've been mid mouthful at a restaurant when a server has asked how my food is and I've made this sign and not been called a racist. However, should I and half a dozen of my buddies, armed an in full tactical gear, sta…

but things can change to make the OK sign tabu too, can't they? We are saying that if you use a potentially racist sign (hand OK) in real life it's not a big deal, since you're not using it in conjunction with other racist stuff. At the same time you cannot use another potentially racist sign (the confederate flag), even if you were just trying to make a videogame version of "The Dukes of Hazzard" and are not trying…

So all racists have to do is adopt something as a “inside” symbol, then publicly advertise its “real” meaning, and everyone rushes to avoid it no matter how common it is.

I could see white supremecists doing this for fun.

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