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George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

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Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#771
post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, criminals aren't going to have higher standards of conduct, even if they "should". That's why we call them criminals. And the police have to deal with these people all day long--there's no easy comparison to other jobs.

Peaceful protestors are by definition not criminals. People whose rights are violated by the police? Often not criminals as well! In fact, you cant really call someone a criminal until they've been convicted of a crime - cue the video of the cops being called by the black store owner, punching him in the face and breaking his jaw while the white thief leaves.

> you cant really call someone a criminal until they've been convicted of a crime

This is a technical nicety not available to a policeman in a real situation. If someone points a gun at them, that someone is a criminal, even if they are "technically" not.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#772
post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, criminals aren't going to have higher standards of conduct, even if they "should". That's why we call them criminals. And the police have to deal with these people all day long--there's no easy comparison to other jobs.

Again, we have data on that. Police do not have to deal with violent or dangerous criminals very much, especially during traffic stops.

The problem is that only occasionally getting killed during a traffic stop isn't enough. No sane person would take such a job.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#773
post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought of a shorter way to answer your question. > If you can’t find someone to fill a position as a police officer, I would suggest increasing the compensation or leaving the position unfilled before simply accepting anyone who might want to be a cop with no standards whatsoever. Let's say we decide to pay police officers 1 million/year and really raise their standards. Great! We did it! Why don't we just do t…

I generally disagree with the impression alexashka is conveying that we can’t have higher standards ‘because humans‘. There is plenty we can do. However, it is worth pointing out that there are around 750,000 police officers in the US. It is hard to deny that finding and or training 750,000 highly capable people is a very difficult problem.

[deleted]

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#774
post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but when you start throwing rocks and glass bottles, when you start blocking ambulances and firetrucks on highways, well then you aren't a peaceful protestor anymore.

How about this child shot in the face with a mace canister? Peaceful or violent protestor? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/15/outrage-vide... It is extremely hard to react with anything but EXTREME vitriol to comments like yours - police are using excessive force deliberately, and then arresting people with no cause who post videos of their crimes.

Yeah, that sucks. Your description makes it sound like their face was impacted by a metal canister, but looking at the picture, they seem to have simply been maced.

Without more context, I'm guessing their parents took them to a protest and acted illegally. If so, I think that's rather poor parenting.

There doesn't seem to be a link to the full video (or any video), so take that with a grain of salt.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#776
post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim that law enforcement culture differs in the countries which you are comparing and that is indeed true. But is the crime culture the same? Or is that not a factor worth considering?

Police are institutions with standardization, their culture isn't some random construct, it's something that's actively decided on, that's codified in legislation and training. Criminal culture is not, it's something that emerges way more naturally, usually as a direct response to the culture set by police and punishments established by law. If, for example, the punishment for certain crimes is so high by default tha…

> If, for example, the punishment for certain crimes is so high by default that the criminal would rather die than get a sentence that would equal death, then you have taken any and all motivation from that criminal to look for a more reasonable way out, instead preferring to "go out in a blaze of glory" on their own terms.

Yep. That is what happens in most cases. Which is why I reject the idea that most cops which shoot black people are racist. Sometimes, as is the case of George Floyd, the individual officer is at fault (even if that does not _necessarily_ mean he is racist), however, in the vast majority of police shootings, the victim is trying to reach for the cop's gun, assaulting the officer, or in some other way is putting the officer's life in danger. So you can not blame the individual shooter in such cases.

You can, however, blame the systems which cause the erratic behavior, that's true. However, we need to have an honest conversation about what the causes actually are.

The gang culture in prisons is indeed a problem, but making prisons less tough would not solve this problem - it would only exacerbated, as gangs would have increased influence over the prison. Of course, in reality many gangs are in cahoots with the prison staff, which is a corruption problem which needs to be solved.

Another problem the article correctly points is non-violent offenders becoming violent as a result of their time in the prisons.

That said, the gang culture in prisons is only an extension of the gang culture outside of prisons. And you can not blame that on tough sentencing, as the gang culture exists in many other places around the world - in the UK grooming gangs, in Sweden's no-go zones, in Romania's gypsy gangs and so on, all countries without harsh sentencing.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#777
post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The crowd has been otherwise quite peaceful exercising their first amendment right. Not going to lie, this actually made me laugh[1]. Other than that, you missed my point entirely. When a policeman calmly explains to you that you are not allowed to be in a particular area for 10 mintues and the whole crowd screams in disapproval and refuses to leave, so the police use force to remove the crowd, and someone tapes a…

It's still correct the vast majority of the protests are peaceful.

And the vast majority of policemen are not beating people up.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#778
post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’ve reached the point where the problem is more than just the equipment, it’s the culture. This is absolutely true, but the problem goes much deeper than just the police force itself. We seem to want to solve every imaginable social problem with police/courts/prisons. Drug abuse needs to be viewed as a public health problem, not a criminal problem. Homelessness as a housing and mental health problem, not a criminal…

Maybe "the right not to be prosecuted for a victimless crime" should be an amendment. Then homelessness/drugs-whatevers/prostitution can no longer have laws against them. "Address the root cause", exactly, and the root cause is the unjust laws. Though cops pretty much never being found guilty for unjust use of violence is a big one too, and I wonder what law changes can solve that issue.

Homelessness/drugs/prostitution has splash and fallout damage to people directly involved and others such as disease-spreading, burgleries, and mental/physical damage. Having laws against them is just one way mitigate or minimize that damage, but of course dealing with the underlying cause should work better, but our country is not sympathetic to that kind of social spending.

So we have a continual cycle of crime-punishment that doesn't mitigate enough, simply because the underlying problems remain, until our country stops with the "you're on your own" mentality and starts supporting social programs better.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#779
post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've thought of a shorter way to answer your question. > If you can’t find someone to fill a position as a police officer, I would suggest increasing the compensation or leaving the position unfilled before simply accepting anyone who might want to be a cop with no standards whatsoever. Let's say we decide to pay police officers 1 million/year and really raise their standards. Great! We did it! Why don't we just do t…

I generally disagree with the impression alexashka is conveying that we can’t have higher standards ‘because humans‘. There is plenty we can do. However, it is worth pointing out that there are around 750,000 police officers in the US. It is hard to deny that finding and or training 750,000 highly capable people is a very difficult problem.

You disagree with a straw-man version of my argument while agreeing with my actual argument :)

There has to be a limit to 'higher standards' humans can live up to, I hope we can agree on that. If you agree, you can't deny that we can't have higher standards indefinitely.

We can have higher standards a little bit and we can fake achieving higher standards a lot by moving highly capable people from one set of jobs to another (from jobs X, Y, Z to police officer by paying them 1 million/year) and doing a marketing campaign that convinces the ignorant masses that real progress has been made.

My previous posts were pointing out that wanting higher standards and not having any standards for the people who create and raise new humans, are incompatible and have to be reconciled if you want to actually have higher standards, not fake higher standards via re-distribution of highly capable people.

Re: George Floyd Protest – police brutality videos on Twitter

#780

If there ever was a case of "don't comment unless you've RTFA" this it: people extrapolating their viewpoint on a list of 700 things from watching 1, 2, 3 ... At a minimum, watch 100 videos. I did last night, only took about an hour, it's easy to find some to nitpick, some which are ambiguous ... and plenty that are totally horrifying. If you can watch 100 videos in a row from Greg Doucette's list and say, "the milit…

I did that yesterday, more than 100 of the videos. Eventually I saw a pattern, surprising since it was common in major cities all across the US and as if there were some single, central training materials. Apparently: (1) Police are taught to be in control of any contact with a citizen. Recently the police have been taught to act nice initially, but, once it is clear some actual law enforcement is to be involved, be…

I think that you've noticed a very important piece of the puzzle. I spent a decade as a Marine, received quite a bit of training alongside police and other law enforcement. The mandate to "acquire situational control" is inherent throughout that training. A few points that have stuck with me:

Police are expected to acquire control of any situation they are called to through seizing initiative. This means that they don't wait for anyone to take any action, but immediately take verbally or physically dominating actions.

It is nearly impossible to acquire control of US civilians without violating the Constitution or Bill of Rights. Once someone has violated the law, the police are protected in terms of this violation, but because they are trained to acquire immediate control, they most often are violating the rights of people who've broken no laws.

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