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Hetzner Price Adjustment

docs.hetzner.com

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Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#761

Post by theshrike79 »

dbmnt wrote: post #760
theshrike79 wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With AWS I can build the stack so that I don't need to wake up in the early hours on a Saturday to fix it. Someone at Amazon is already sweating and pulling crap off racks or reconfiguring a switch or restoring a database. At max I can go "yea, not our problem, it'll come back up when the intern at Amazon stops messing with the DNS again" on Slack, put the phone down and go back to sleep =) Running on bare metal VPS…

But more specifically why build a stack tied to a single vendor? You talk about competent SRE being hard to find and manage but then you describe needing several AWS backend specialists. I think I'd rather have a generalized SRE team with portable infrastructure. Maybe that's just me. I watched an org get burned by Google App Engine. I find these proprietary stacks to be a giant trap.

It's a nice pipe dream to have a "cloud independent" stack. Yea, you can kinda do it with stuff like Opentofu abstracting the services, but in practice nobody does that because it's a massive mess of slight differences here and there. And a complete impossibility if you go anywhere beyond very basic compute and DBs. Like how do you do cloud independent IAM?

What you do is you accept the risk and mitigate it. Watch the costs and figure out whether buying stuff like AI capacity (Bedrock, Vertex), queues, databases or block storage as a service is more cost-efficient (including maintenance costs) than self-hosting them.

I _know_ how to run all that shit locally, but I don't _want_ to.

Upgrading an Aurora Postgres server is like two clicks on the Web UI, not even that if you set the maintenance window. Adding new servers to the cluster is a single number change to the terraform file. I can even up or downscale the compute behind them depending on what's going on. A big release and we're expecting unusual traffic? Bump them up by changing one string in the .tf file or add more replicas temporarily.

With on-prem hardware I'd need to buy and provision the hardware, pick an OS, get it up and running, install the DB, fuck around with the DB configs and whatever networking the provider is using to get it connected with the other servers while still keeping it out of the larger internet. And there will be no downscaling or upscaling because it's actual hardware.

Also any half-decent full stack / backend engineer can learn AWS basics in a week or on a two day course provided by AWS with lunch and snacks included. Messing with actual physical hardware is a completely different skill set that's getting rare and expensive these days.

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#762

Post by dbmnt »

theshrike79 wrote: post #761
dbmnt wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But more specifically why build a stack tied to a single vendor? You talk about competent SRE being hard to find and manage but then you describe needing several AWS backend specialists. I think I'd rather have a generalized SRE team with portable infrastructure. Maybe that's just me. I watched an org get burned by Google App Engine. I find these proprietary stacks to be a giant trap.

It's a nice pipe dream to have a "cloud independent" stack. Yea, you can kinda do it with stuff like Opentofu abstracting the services, but in practice nobody does that because it's a massive mess of slight differences here and there. And a complete impossibility if you go anywhere beyond very basic compute and DBs. Like how do you do cloud independent IAM? What you do is you accept the risk and mitigate it. Watch th…

[dead]

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#763

Post by fuckinpuppers »

Holy shit this is a big bump on a lot of them.

I’m so tired of this timeline. Rich people pillaging everything, governments happily allowing it, cost of living rising everywhere, a lot of environmental improvements have been put on pause (to prioritize profits for the aforementioned people)

Everything keeps going up.

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#764

Post by stymaar »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #759
stymaar wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> You are embarrassing yourself. «Ce qui est excessif est insignifiant» Or you could not be an ass. I think you're saying it would take an unreasonably extreme threshold to make that statement true? It does not. Note that "could" is different from "sufficiently motivated". Even with the limited abilities of computers then, 15% of US households had one by the end of that period, let alone the 46% and 37% numbers for s…

> 15% of US households had one by the end of that period,

You realize it's like saying that automobile became mainstream in 1900-1950 and using figures from the late 50s to justify your the range you picked?

> If computers were as useful as they are today, the household number would have been well over 50%.

What are you doing here? The question is “how long personal computers has been a mass phenomenon”, not “how much people from the 19th century would have bought one if it existed by then”…

> There's a limit on how much volume they can absorb.

And there's a limit in manufacturing capacities. Nobody will invest to build a additional $50B fab to satisfy a demand that pay less than the (hyperscaler-driven, in my scenario) market price.

Again, I'm not saying it's what will happen, I have no superpowers to know the future, but neither do you.

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#765

Post by Hetzner_OL »

renaudg wrote: post #741

I am no environmental activist, but Hetzner's carbon footprint is so much worse than the rest that it's hard to ignore. I've always avoided them as a matter of principle. Two of their 3 datacenters are located in Germany, which has some of the worst carbon emissions in Europe due to their stubborn refusal of nuclear and reliance on coal/gas. As I write this, we're talking 20x higher carbon intensity compared to Franc…

Hi there, we use a power supplier that uses renewable hydropower in Germany and Finland. See: https://www.hetzner.com/unternehmen/nachhaltigkeit/ --Katie (Hetzner)

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#766

Post by pbronez »

mrngld wrote: post #723
bayindirh wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By the time you can have a slow death of personal computing, capacity will improve and prices will improve. I love this baseless optimism. Reminds me of the economic theory (forgot who put it forward): Everything will be fine in the long run. ...and it's rebuked by Maynard Keynes: "We're all dead in the long run". Yes, by the time capacity & prices will improve, we'll be all dead. > I don't see why hyperscalers wou…

> I love this baseless optimism. Reminds me of the economic theory (forgot who put it forward): Everything will be fine in the long run. Seems accurate though, I've already noticed no-name Chinese manufacturers stepping it up, throwing caution and capital to the wind and leaning in as hard they can. Following the typical Chinese model of how they get involved in markets, we're just a couple years away from memory bei…

In that scenario, maybe SSD prices drop enough that spinning disk loses relevance.

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#767

Post by benjiro29 »

omnimus wrote: post #286
benjiro29 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember the price increase that Hetzner did during 2022 because of the invasion in Ukraine. The said they will adjust the prices down when the electricity price reduced. Guess what? I am paying as a consumer about the same price as before 2022. Did Hetzner change their price down? Remember, the industrial price also dropped (and they also build out a large solar plant). No ... Ok, inflation? But those price increa…

The reasons really doesn't matter. As long as they are in top of price/performance/quality nobody will switch. Once they stop to be then people will think about it.

> As long as they are in top of price/performance/quality nobody will switch.

Very sure that those new prices has put them out of the whole price/performance/quality bracket.

* Past: consumer level hardware for basic support, and low prices.

* Now: consumer level hardware for basic support, and extreme high prices.

So the entire peg for their hardware choice vs pricing, has collapsed.

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#768

Post by carlosjobim »

vkou wrote: post #752
carlosjobim wrote: post #575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A new market is made when a product or service which previously was too expensive becomes affordable to more people due to innovation. There's thousands of example, many of them in your own life. But you are decided. Being negative is what you have chosen and there's plenty of people who will back you up because they are also afraid.

Could you give any examples of how these new markets have positively changed my life as a consumer? Did any of the stuff I buy become cheaper or better, or get replaced with something else entirely (that is cheaper or better)? Where is the horse buggy -> automobile transition of this AI age? Where is the industrialization that made clothes 10x cheaper to make? Show me examples.

There's two many examples to mention, but you will shoot down any example I give. So what's the use? Also are you asking specifically for AI or for invention in general?

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#769

Post by ksec »

mkesper wrote: post #561
ksec wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure would be nice if we got to see any of that, We are only 1 to 2 year into a cycle and we expect a lot of things to happen. Even the business decisions of things were decided before the cycle happened, as if they are fortune teller or God, the hardware lead time would meant it will be next year at best before we see results. And Nvidia has already moved at a faster pace than most imagined. Latest GPU R&D are now…

Please show sources. Maybe no one appreciates it because it's only rumors spread by enterprises massively profiting from such rumors? And about your toilet paper analogy: Every producer tried everything to improve output. You cannot just let your machines run faster. You also need input materials, workers and logistics to scale accordingly, which is often not possible.

>You cannot just let your machines run faster. You also need input materials, workers and logistics to scale accordingly, which is often not possible.

It is not about getting machines to run faster, it is about buying new machines setting up a whole new line. And the ROI will never make sense until the scale and price reach certain point.

>Please show sources.

You can literally apply the same theory across all commodity industry. The problem is supply Chain was never understood by wider audience.

Re: Hetzner Price Adjustment

#770

Post by ksec »

bigbadfeline wrote: post #550
ksec wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>(world's first trillionaire anyone?) With some work on crypto many people could be a trillionaire on paper. Whether it translate to actual wealth and liquidity is another matter. We are talking about P/E of 300 / P/S of close to 100 for Tesla and SpaceX. >When exactly are the upsides going to hit? A lot of people take Moore's law, or technology improvement as granted. It will always come. It will always become cheap…

> The AI Boom pushed a lot of technology forward by at least 2 - 3 years or 1 cycle. Untrue. Technology has been evolving perfectly fine for the last 50 years. If anything it has slowed down lately due to getting close to the physical limits - which were reached without any AI whatsoever . We were getting insane gains in clock speed and memory capacity some 20 odd years ago, it's not the case any more. > We are basic…

>Technology has been evolving perfectly fine for the last 50 years.

Tell that to Intel and how TSMC manage to outpace Intel. It was because Smartphone had a much bigger scale. The TAM of custom foundry went up by 10x.

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