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Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

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Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#761

Post by hobofan »

gacklecackle wrote: post #56
zelphirkalt wrote: post #39

Well, of course, if we didn't have traffic ministers again and again, who do everything they can to make rail less attractive and road more attractive, then we could probably have a great system. But automobile lobby is so strong, they buy all the politicians in that role, probably even before they land in that role, so I guess normal people will have to keep suffering, so that those politicians can have a life of lu…

Automobile lobby? That's BS. The German rail system has been cost-saved to death, it now barely handles the increased passenger volume as a result of the D-Ticket. Overcrowded trains, even more delays and train cancellations (b/c of insufficient staff coverage, malfunctioning doors, etc.) even with S-Bahn trains are getting out of hand. "Transitwende" my ass! Same with the "Energiewende". How i envy the Dutch and Bel…

> The German rail system has been cost-saved to death

Yes, because the the traffic ministers allocate the spending of their resort to the Autobahn instead of the Deutsche Bahn.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#762

Post by halostatue »

spacebanana7 wrote: post #160
PlunderBunny wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget too that the cost of proving roads is also ‘subsidised’ in most countries, but we’re tend to be a bit blind to that. (This is not an argument against rail - I just find that subsidies are often mentioned with respect to rail but not with roads).

Calculating the subsidy associated with state maintenance of roads for private vehicles is difficult. Some basic level of signage and hazard prevention (potholes, ice etc) is necessary for emergency vehicles and other government operations. Thereafter, although there is some maintenance cost associated with the road wear from private vehicles and the additional infrastructure required for higher traffic volumes, we d…

I disagree that it's difficult: excepting toll roads and "unassumed" roads‡, the subsidy is 100% (and most toll roads are likely subsidized at a substantial fraction of their cost, since the tolls are rarely high enough to be self-sufficient).

It doesn't matter whether the money used to pay for road maintenance comes from property taxes (like in Toronto), income taxes (Ontario areas not maintained by cities / regions / counties), or gas taxes (much of the U.S.?). If you're not paying per use of the road, there is a 100% subsidy on the maintenance of the road.

There are definite costs to not maintaining those roads (people won't move where there aren't roads; unmaintained roads will result in more costs to the people using those roads as their vehicles are damaged more frequently—which may result in costs to the municipality for not properly maintaining those roads), but we should not pretend roads are self-sustaining or aren't entirely subsidized.

‡ Unassumed roads are those built privately by the landowners in common and are not maintained by the local government. When used for private dwellings, these roads usually fall under the sway of the local government after a period of time, even if they were built initially by a subdivision subcontractor.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#763

Post by lotsofpulp »

jjav wrote: post #706
lotsofpulp wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>All America's missing is laws that allow kids to walk to school and adding more sidewalks to enable this, but this is changing over time (see Utah's free range parenting law). Laws and sidewalk curbs don’t stop a giant SUV/pickup truck driven by someone looking at their mobile at 40mph in a residential area. And crossing a 50ft+ wide intersection of a 40mph road (which means people drive 50mph) is daunting even for…

> And crossing a 50ft+ wide intersection of a 40mph road (which means people drive 50mph) is daunting even for adults, and simply not advisable after the sun goes down. At least here (California) those intersections have stoplights and pedestrian crossings, so the width and moving speed of the road are not relevant. The cars will be stopped when you cross by walking. I don't remember exact age but certainly before ki…

> The cars will be stopped when you cross by walking.

You live in a place with some combination of far more traffic enforcement or far more conscientious drivers than me.

All I see when I look around is a sea of people glancing up and down between the road and their phone. It would be negligent to let my kids cross an arterial road, especially after dark.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#764

Post by nemo44x »

lolc wrote: post #634
insane_dreamer wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a nice but false narrative. The Swiss are wealthier than the Americans and yet they use public transport extensively.

Good public infra is wealth with much higher utility than private infra.

Roads are public infra. I agree they should be kept in good order.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#765

Post by nemo44x »

occz wrote: post #702
nemo44x wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason is because Americans are unbelievably wealthy and can afford large homes that require multiple cars for the family to get around. It’s a positive sign of American prosperity and the envy of the world hence the massive immigration demand and relative lack of expatriatism. If America gets to a point where that’s no longer possible and people have to live in smaller and more densely populated areas not b…

This reads like satire, but I'm not sure that it is and it's frightening me a bit.

What’s satirical about it? Why would people want a world where they are forced to live on top of each other in small places if they don’t have to due to plentiful energy and vast material wealth?

If some new age Protestant needs to live worse to fulfill some spiritual hole then they can do it. But everyone else wants a large yard, comfortable home with many rooms, nice cars, and well maintained infrastructure to drive and park.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#766

Post by immibis »

eptcyka wrote: post #733
immibis wrote: post #723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German people have an understandable historical revulsion to the government tracking their every move.

Yes, that is why, instead of using a payment network, they choose to use an app, which still needs one to transact within the financial system and lets the government adjacent company run arbitrary code on one’s phone.

It's why they use paper tickets most of the time.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#767

Post by jaccarmac »

verall wrote: post #613
nsokolsky wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That figure includes every single government-owned street, AFAIK. Total infrastructure costs are higher but don't seem that much higher than in Germany?

TxDOT does not maintain local or county roads which are a massive portion of cost in sprawl.

To add specifics: Dallas does not cover road maintenance with its budget and must sell bonds to cover the $10b in "deferred maintenance".

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2024/04/a-voters-guide...

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#768

Post by lagrange77 »

ossobuco wrote: post #665
_19qg wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Otto von Bismarck introduced much of the social safety net in Germany, incl. health insurance (in 1883). He definitely was not a communist. He once called it "practical christianity" ("praktisches Christentum").

After all Jesus was a proto-socialist, wasn't he?

Yes, he doesn't exactly come across as an Airpods-wearing Wall Street yuppie.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#769

Post by bluGill »

PaulHoule wrote: post #669
neither_color wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is much less of a problem in large Asian cities. They're only really stressful in rush hour crowds. But in places like NY the public seems much less interested in the initial policing, maintenance, and cultural attitude shifts that would be required to make it happen. Like, you could still have the artists, street performers, and other so-called charming quirks while still making sure the problematic passengers…

It is easy to say but not easy to do. Post Szasz and Reagan we’ve had the policy of deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill. Thus you have a lot of people with schizophrenia who have no insight into their condition who are very hard to manage. Even in a town where services are relatively available there are many people who take years to accept a diagnosis which can get them on disability and receiving permanent he…

> deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill

This dates back to at least JFK and probably farther back. The institutions of the 1950s were terrible for the mentally ill - putting them on the streets is a better answer than the abuse a lot of them suffered. Of course the Kennedy's had enough to treat their mentally ill family members to better institutions than the government mandated ones.

If a reformed institution could treat the mentally ill better than the the streets is an open question - in theory it can, but human nature is all too often to abuse in that way and so you should question if any reform can stick. If you say yes then it is on you to verify. If you say no - we need a better answer than the street (I can't think of any - or at least not any that I don't have other objections to)

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#770

Post by dreadlordbone »

raverbashing wrote: post #398
nsokolsky wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True to a degree but cars also make parenting easier: you get bigger houses, bigger backyards, don't have lug your kids around on public transit, deal with the weather, don't need to worry about rail worker strikes, etc. All America's missing is laws that allow kids to walk to school and adding more sidewalks to enable this, but this is changing over time (see Utah's free range parenting law).

Here's easier parenting: walk from your house/apartment to a close by square, and play with your kids there

Honestly, I don't want that lifestyle. I live in the burbs with a big house and yard. We travel plenty and go to places that are dense/walkable but I love coming back home to my carbrained neighborhood with an HOA.
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