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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

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Re: "Lighten up"

#761

Post by KuraFire »

erichocean wrote: post #418
Jabbles wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say. Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine. Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal i…

I don't disagree with anything you have to say, but a thought did enter my mind: At what point did we become okay with excluding sexuality from human lives, or a large portion of them -- the time we spend working? Sexuality is every bit as much a "human" endeavor as, say, eating -- and we don't (currently) say: never eat at work, work is for work only (despite the fact that food does separate people from each other,…

The problem with sexuality in the workplace / people's daily lives today is that a lot of the content (commentary, ideas, beliefs, etc.) revolves around objectifying, marginalizing and degrading women—not as individuals, but as women across the board. Now, a lot of sexually empowered women have no problem with discussing sex openly, or being objectified in the bedroom, or even talking about being objectified in the bedroom while at work.

However, the difference is that in those cases, it is always the woman's choice to participate in it. Since they are the marginalized demographic in this matter, the choice should be theirs to indicate what is and isn't acceptable commentary, discussion or behavior in the workplace.

Today's environment is one where it’s _men_ who overwhelmingly decide, by way of majority-reinforcement, what other people should consider to be acceptable or not.

It all comes down to marginalization: we don't marginalize or trivialize people—or their accomplishments—based on the fact that they eat. However, our society does tend to do those things to people based on their gender; specifically, to women based on their gender.

Once we eradicate the culture in which that happens, people can express themselves sexually more freely and without hesitation, in the safe and sound knowledge that doing so won't instantly label them in a certain way that would dramatically (in a negative way) impact their professional and/or social lives—or worse.

Re: "Lighten up"

#762

Post by sp332 »

ajross wrote: post #760
sp332 wrote: post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I've done it. I was at an all-mothers event mostly by accident. She glared at me and kind of laughed. My mother gave me a dirty look lol. Pretty much expected. Did you expect something bad to happen? Maybe it would be different if she were single and available?

So I guess the lesson is that because sp332 feels no shame in deeply embarrassing situations that no one else would. Yikes. I'd be bright red and backing slowly toward the door if that came out of my mouth. You, sir, are weird.

Well I felt pretty bad about it at the time, and left the room after a minute. But later she told me (when I asked her about it) that it wasn't a big deal and I shouldn't have taken it so hard. My mom doesn't remember the incident but she tells me that no one would have cared much.

Re: "Lighten up"

#763

Post by omgsean »

Tichy wrote: post #683
omgsean wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of those relationships do you think were sparked by public sexist comments during a meeting? You're veering dangerously into "beep boop" territory.

What is "beep boop" territory? I am aware that many people will choose to misunderstand me. I am not saying sexism at work should be tolerated so that couples can form. I am saying that attraction at the workplace is real and people need help learning how to deal with it. The "leary guy" might have been sexist, or simply socially inept. If the definition of sexism includes "acknowledging the existence of boobs" then…

"beep boop" territory is what happens when you try to reduce human interactions to evolutionary psychology or "if..then..else" statements.

>If the definition of sexism includes "acknowledging the existence of boobs" then there is no hope, though.

"Hey, look at the boobs on our sole female co-worker!" is sexism. So I guess there's no hope.

Re: "Lighten up"

#764

Post by ajross »

sp332 wrote: post #762
ajross wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I guess the lesson is that because sp332 feels no shame in deeply embarrassing situations that no one else would. Yikes. I'd be bright red and backing slowly toward the door if that came out of my mouth. You, sir, are weird.

Well I felt pretty bad about it at the time, and left the room after a minute. But later she told me (when I asked her about it) that it wasn't a big deal and I shouldn't have taken it so hard. My mom doesn't remember the incident but she tells me that no one would have cared much.

OK, but that's a really telling detail: she was gracious about it, because she could be (she was in a position of social power), and because you were visibly embarrassed. In the anecdote above, the guy wasn't apparently embarrassed, and Katie didn't have the social power to tell him "it's OK" even if he was (and why should she have to, if she was the one who was embarassed?).

See the point? These are critical details, and they change the moral calculus. You can't wave away an incident like this just because you can imagine something similar which wasn't a problem.

Like I said way up-thread: someone (you) is going to point out that not all women would react like Katie did. So what? Context matters!

Re: "Lighten up"

#765

Post by sp332 »

ajross wrote: post #764
sp332 wrote: post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I felt pretty bad about it at the time, and left the room after a minute. But later she told me (when I asked her about it) that it wasn't a big deal and I shouldn't have taken it so hard. My mom doesn't remember the incident but she tells me that no one would have cared much.

OK, but that's a really telling detail: she was gracious about it, because she could be (she was in a position of social power), and because you were visibly embarrassed. In the anecdote above, the guy wasn't apparently embarrassed, and Katie didn't have the social power to tell him "it's OK" even if he was (and why should she have to, if she was the one who was embarassed?). See the point? These are critical details…

I totally agree with you. I think JulianMorrison missed that point. Being on the "downside of a power gap" doesn't always mean that speaking up will have bad consequences. It's up to the person who has power. The men in the original scenario need to explicitly give the woman room to speak up if she's feeling uncomfortable.

Re: "Lighten up"

#766

Post by mirkules »

lordlicorice wrote: post #747
ckpwong wrote: post #700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, your comment may get Sarah off the hook, but I'd probably feel even more offended by that comment than by the boss' request. If she has the courage to display any disdain over your overtly sexism comment though, perhaps the boss would take (mental) note. At the same time, the boss may not even be aware of the sexism in the initial request--he/she may rationalize the request/decision after-the-fact, even if it we…

How is that remotely offensive? I think you need to re-read his post.

If you worked in a "traditional" corporate environment, you would know why it's offensive. General rule of thumb is, don't say it if you wouldn't say it to your mother. I certainly wouldn't say that to my mother.

Edit: to elaborate, corporations aren't concerned with being labeled as sexist. They are worried about being sued because of sexism, because it's one of the toughest kinds of corporate lawsuits to defend against, and one of the most lucrative kinds of lawsuits for the plaintiff. (IANAL though)

Re: "Lighten up"

#767

Post by IsaacSchlueter »

sophacles wrote: post #540
Swizec wrote: post #180

Honest question: Why is it so bad when guys treat gals like they're just one of the guys? Guys give each other small disparaging jabs all the time, be it the workplace or a party between friends, it's what we do to fit in; it's how our social groups work and what keeps them together. I've never been female, so I don't know what it looks like from their perspective, but to me telling a lass to go back to the kitchen i…

I answered this on the blog comment you made too, hopefully it will get readership in both places: This is not a bad question. I would like to make several points here, and hope a woman commenter chimes in with first-hand perspective too. First of all, the "guys joking and jabbing each other" thing is true. But it really isn't that simple of a social interaction. At the early "getting to know each other" stages, the…

    its funny for a core group member to yet again make a
    joke about how Isaac can't be trusted because he's a
    mexican thief
Over the line, dude. Not cool.

Re: "Lighten up"

#768

Post by Shenglong »

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"

-> "Oop, looks like Bob's wearing the same thing as yesterday."

-> "Kinda desperate there, eh?"

Re: "Lighten up"

#770

Post by araneae »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131
klausa wrote: post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

>Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)?

I would say for the most part it's not all that conscious. We buy the dress if we like it. In some cases we might not buy it if it looks too revealing, or buy it because it's especially sexy, but for the most part dresses are cut to the style of the day and it has little to do with the intentions of the woman wearing them.

Personally I've started consciously looking for low-cut tops and dresses for the first time in my life, because they're easier to breastfeed in. Most of my dresses and tops are cut too high to do that easily so I need to expand my wardrobe. So sorry, all that cleavage is not for you, it's for my baby :).

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