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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#761

Post by majewsky »

zamadatix wrote: post #751
vetinari wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> only presents the option to capture the full screen Are you sure? I'm pretty sure I had two tabs, one for picking displays and other for picking windows. Pretty much like this: https://bug1675764.bmoattachments.org/attachment.cgi?id=9186...

Looking deeper into it (been meaning to anyways) it seems to be the typical Wayland compositor specific issue, and ironically I'm using ddevault's compositor sway. Pipewire doesn't seem to care what you send it but your second window looks to be part of xdg-desktop-portal-gtk if I'm not mistaken. Since I'm using sway/wlroots I need to use xdg-desktop-portal-wlr instead. In the FAQ for this package: "Will this let me…

For your reference, these are the issues to subscribe to if you're interested in following the discussion as it's taking place:

https://github.com/emersion/xdg-desktop-portal-wlr/issues/12

https://github.com/swaywm/wlr-protocols/issues/93

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#762

Post by dleslie »

kaba0 wrote: post #741
dleslie wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The PinePhone has unstable hardware, it doesn't matter if I run X or Wayland and it doesn't matter what distribution I use. I can't keep it operating for more than 5 minutes before the screen goes to blank and/or it gets stuck in an endless reboot cycle that requires removing the battery to halt.

Which distro? I have one as well and at least under mobian , while it is really far from stable, it works. But reboot cycles sound like a hardware bug rather than unstable hardware.

I've tried:

    Ubuntu Touch
    Mobian (phosh)
    PostmarketOS (sxmo, phosh)
    Manjaro (Phosh, Plasma and Lomiri)
And multiple release versions of each; using multiple different sdcards as well as the on-board memory.

The only OS that doesn't exhibit the reboot/black-screen issues for me is the one used to allow flashing of the device over USB.

The factory test software works, all of the different OS variants; so if there is a hardware issue the factory test software isn't able to detect it. Notably, I've left the test software running without issue.

I've even tried turning off all the hardware dip switches.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#763

Post by PurpleFoxy »

ebiester wrote: post #256
kuschku wrote: post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

I get the frustration, but fundamentally, screen sharing and screenshots are so integral to my daily use that I couldn't even consider wayland. For nearly any remote worker at this point, at least the ones I work with, this is fundamentally true. In 2021, screen sharing and screenshots are table stakes.

Screen sharing and screenshots do work on wayland as long as the application is updated to support it. Electron only recently gained this capability so not all electron apps have updated yet.

No one will fault you for using X because zoom hasn’t supported wayland yet. The problem is people sharing blatant falsehoods like “wayland doesn’t support screen sharing” when there are plenty of programs that can do just that on wayland.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#764

Post by cycloptic »

nitrogen wrote: post #715
icefo wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that's not good but redhat seems to be one of the few organization that pays developers to improve parts of the linux ecosystem. So when redhat endorse a project it probably means it tries to address some pain points of the status quo. That's how I see systemd and wayland. For systemd the consensus seems to be that's it's better than the previous init systems as most distributions have adopted it. It seems we…

For systemd the consensus seems to be that's it's better than the previous init systems as most distributions have adopted it. I think the parent comment was alluding to the fact that RedHat has the ability to manufacture consensus. All the distributions use systemd (and pulseaudio and ...) because GNOME and other core components were modified to work only with systemd. So everyone agreed to use RedHat's way because…

What you are saying is a borderline conspiracy theory and is not true. GNOME still works outside of systemd, and the distributions that want to use it outside of systemd are maintaining the parts that they need, which in reality are pretty small. (I can give some more technical details if you want, but the short answer is: elogind)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#765

Post by PurpleFoxy »

mindcrime wrote: post #141
kuschku wrote: post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

Now why does wayland break screenshot and keyboard tools? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or containerized applications is useless. OK, so what's the solution here? Give up on screen-shotting tools forever? Or is there a plan to fix this somehow?

The solution is to make it a permission. On macOS you can’t just record the screen, you can open the OS settings page and tell the user to allow screen recording and now your program gains access to this feature.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#766

Post by [deleted] »

Aardwolf wrote: post #56
darkwater wrote: post #11

Wayland is being treated like PulseAudio and systemd before. So, it will probably win its battle, thanks $DEITY.

That's because all three are similar, all three throw away some of the modular unix philosophy and replace it with a system that gives less power to the user.

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#767

Post by PurpleFoxy »

tleb_ wrote: post #217
kuschku wrote: post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

The question is then: is this isolation even useful? There are a lot of attacks that still exist when a program runs in userspace and that are not inherent to GUI programs. Example: creating an executable named sudo somewhere in a directory that is in your ~ and PATH.

Wayland is only one piece in the security puzzle. Flatpak and SELinux are the other pieces. Under X there is no point sandboxing a GUI app since X provides an escape.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#769

Post by nitrogen »

cycloptic wrote: post #764
nitrogen wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For systemd the consensus seems to be that's it's better than the previous init systems as most distributions have adopted it. I think the parent comment was alluding to the fact that RedHat has the ability to manufacture consensus. All the distributions use systemd (and pulseaudio and ...) because GNOME and other core components were modified to work only with systemd. So everyone agreed to use RedHat's way because…

What you are saying is a borderline conspiracy theory and is not true. GNOME still works outside of systemd, and the distributions that want to use it outside of systemd are maintaining the parts that they need, which in reality are pretty small. (I can give some more technical details if you want, but the short answer is: elogind)

Maybe things have improved over the last several years, now that systemd is fait accompli. Earlier on in its life I recall discussions of GNOME features that would only work on Linux+systemd, and the BSDs were complaining.

But the point remains that, even without any ill intent, the lack of competition and compromise can produce outcomes that look like malice -- people gradually get used to making decisions that go unquestioned, and unwittingly walk all over everyone who no longer has a voice in the discussion. This pushes more people out, and the cycle of the tail winning against the dog repeats and continues.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#770

Post by PurpleFoxy »

zests wrote: post #390
singron wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried ydotool?

There needs to be a better way to discover random stuff like this.

What are you hoping for? Someone to drop down and teach you how to do everything on wayland? I have no idea how to do keyboard automation on X11 but that says nothing about X11. This is the problem the post is talking about. Every single thread about wayland is filled with “but it can’t do Y” when it is possible to do Y.
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