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Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

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Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#751

Post by ninjagoo »

joe_mamba wrote: post #152
Aurornis wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets even worse. The person not only kept the laptop and used an exploit to download confidential Apple documents, they bragged about it to a contact who was still working at Apple who was also feeding him information: > Liu allegedly kept an Apple-issued laptop after departing the company and exploited a vulnerability to download dozens of confidential Apple documents while he was working at OpenAI. He also maint…

>Whenever I leave a company I make sure everything that belongs to the company goes back to them Because you're probably come from a high trust culture where you've been taught reciprocal trust, responsibility and accountability, but there's people coming from low trust environments where exploiting loopholes and scamming everyone outside their inner circle is the norm, and it's the way they learned to get ahead in l…

> Because you're probably come from a high trust culture where you've been taught reciprocal trust, responsibility and accountability, but there's people coming from low trust environments where exploiting loopholes and scamming everyone outside their inner circle is the norm, and it's the way they learned to get ahead in life, from school all the way to work and business.

For an adult, I would attribute this more to internal mental makeup than anything else. I've seen individuals exhibit these positive and negative behaviors irrespective of whether they were in a high-trust society or a low-trust one, a wealthy society or a poverty-riddled one.

Additionally, based on what's going on in the world, I would say that there are very clear signs that a high-trust society is formed when adults with positive behaviors are in power, and a low-trust society is formed when adults with negative behaviors gain power.

Indubitably, there are individuals whose behaviors are moderated by what type of society they're in, but that split between moderated individuals and self-driven individuals is, IMHO, unknown, or at least, unknown to me.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#752

Post by ninjagoo »

dd8601fn wrote: post #267
rafram wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been seeing this “high-trust society” dog whistle a lot lately, and I think it’s one of the funniest of its kind. You truly want me to believe that the United States, a country with a history of slavery and segregation, a country that went through a historical period dominated by people literally called “robber barons,” was a high-trust society before immigrants from less industrialized places came and ruined th…

US office culture is generally pretty high trust. It has relatively high autonomy, authority, and low surveillance norms. I don't know what that has to do with a historical period of slavery.

> US office culture is generally pretty high trust. It has relatively high autonomy, authority, and low surveillance norms.

Unless you're black, or other disadvantaged minority

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#753

Post by Aurornis »

taurath wrote: post #525
Aurornis wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets even worse. The person not only kept the laptop and used an exploit to download confidential Apple documents, they bragged about it to a contact who was still working at Apple who was also feeding him information: > Liu allegedly kept an Apple-issued laptop after departing the company and exploited a vulnerability to download dozens of confidential Apple documents while he was working at OpenAI. He also maint…

> This is how you behave when you think you're so much smarter than everyone around you that consequences don't apply to you. Its also how some folks act like when they've done something they morally can't deal with - their subconscious starts throwing all sorts of obvious signs up until they get caught. I presume this was done for a giant pile of cash, stock, and probably a promise that nobody really cares if you sh…

> Its also how some folks act like when they've done something they morally can't deal with

I think you’re projecting some other ideas on to this situation. These people weren’t driven by subconscious guilt about being paid a lot which drove them to commit literal crimes, in order to solidify their new high paying job. This doesn’t even make sense.

People who do this are just corporate climbers who will use anything they can to boost their status. Stealing from past employer feels like a way to make yourself more valuable or indispensable, which gives them a feeling of leverage in their new job.

> I presume this was done for a giant pile of cash, stock, and probably a promise that nobody really cares if you show up or not, enjoy your retirement.

Most likely the opposite: Their new job brought them into a company surrounded by high performers who got their by working hard. They probably felt insecure in such a competitive environment and thought that stealing from Apple could make them appear more valuable so they could keep up with the demands.

Pre-IPO companies in highly competitive markets are not “rest and vest” environments.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#754

Post by whywhywhywhy »

ozgung wrote: post #543
joshstrange wrote: post #2

Some pretty damning stuff: > OpenAI also instructs new hires on how to avoid scrutiny when they leave Apple. For example, Mr. Tan warns them not to tell Apple that they have taken jobs at OpenAI, so they can stay at Apple as long as they can. > Apple says it discovered a pattern of OpenAI recruits emailing themselves confidential information when leaving Apple, including Tan. > OpenAI apparently used confidential App…

I think a mandatory first thing for any engineer is to learn, understand and commit for life to the Ethics of their profession. It's a shame all these very picky recruitment processes and 'culture' of these giant companies didn't care about ethics and morality. Relevant articles in IEEE Code of Ethics: 3. to avoid real or perceived conflicts of interest whenever possible, and to disclose them to affected parties when…

> understand and commit for life to the Ethics of their profession

Nah this is just pushed on you to disempower you. If you take trade secrets elsewhere lawyers will be used to attack you.

Speaking of lawyers when they move practices they take their IP with them, funny that.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#755

Post by Der_Einzige »

SXX wrote: post #337
decimalenough wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're earning $100k in Silicon Valley, your expenses will swallow up almost all of that. A sudden $100k windfall, on the other hand, tax free and suitably invested,will let you live for years quite comfortably in many poor countries.

Sorry to disappoint you, but no you cannot live "comfortably" in "poor countries" for $100,000 for "years". Well, unless you mean like two years. I lived across South East Asia for more than decade and now live here full time. I have to live on around $20,000 / year most of the time since starting my company. And I do not live anywhere close to what average US / EU citizen will call "comfortable" let alone people fro…

If "poor country" includes "places US foreigners won't go" than you sure as shit can survive longer than 2 years.

For example, Thailand would be 2 years like you say. Neighboring Burma/Myanmar would be EASILY 5 years, possibly 10 depending on how long the civil war goes. That's assuming you don't work and live in the capital Yangon.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#756

Post by bunderbunder »

MeetingsBrowser wrote: post #674
malshe wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds more like they were kept in check at Apple and when they left they showed their true color

VP is a leadership position, and has significant influence over the culture

Pointing out it cuts both ways doesn’t imply that it doesn’t cut one of the ways.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#757

Post by Aurornis »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #692
notatoad wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it’s also that company’s responsibility Is it? I mean legally. Obviously it’s dumb of Apple to have left this guys access open, but that doesn’t mean they actually had any legal responsibility to lock him out. As far as I understand, the law is pretty clear that you can’t access anything you’re not allowed to by policy, whether there’s a technical block or not.

> that doesn’t mean they actually had any legal responsibility to lock him out If the property owner doesn’t make bare minimum effort to protect the property Then how much effort and money should taxpayer spend to protect and prosecute regarding the same property? It seems strange to imply that people that own nothing must through their taxes pay for protection of property of the people who do own everything.

Crimes are crimes and must be prosecuted as such.

The phrase for what you’re doing is “victim blaming”. I don’t know what triggers some people to think this way other than a deep desire to find a contrarian take on a situation.

But no, when a person commits a crime the responsibility and accountability for committing that crime is entirely on the person who committed the crime. If you start blaming the victim or downplaying the crime based on the victim’s circumstances, you are backwards.

> It seems strange to imply that people that own nothing must through their taxes pay for protection of property of the people who do own everything

I don’t know what you think you’re implying here, but by the numbers the wealthy and corporations pay significantly more in taxes than the “people who own nothing”. Everyone should get equal protection under the law, ignoring how much they pay in taxes.

All criminals should be afraid of committing crimes equally, because crimes are crimes and society benefits when committing a crime is discouraged.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#758

Post by Der_Einzige »

Hendrikto wrote: post #607
crossroadsguy wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. I was encouraged to take the lump-sum money my company paid (like most happily did - not taxed; amount equalling latest base iPhone cost) and get MDM installed on the personal phone so that we could access email and everything on that. Laptop was company issued anyway. I, and very few, chose company phone and I got a new SIM just for the company and set it up (they had to pay the SIM bill as well). A nice side…

> somehow some of my fellow country men/women colleagues took pride in "being available" I call that being exploitable.

Reap what you sow. The one's who follow US "availability culture" absolutely will get promoted faster than the euro-in-american clothing "I work to live not live to work" crowd.

Marxian style LTV analysis of the economy breaks down hardcore involving anything touching electrons. His analysis of the theory of alienation/exploitation is literally invalid in the era of computers, and exponentially so in the era of AI systems. It's not "exploitation" to be available in exchange for comically large amounts of money.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#759

Post by nrmitchi »

ozgung wrote: post #543
joshstrange wrote: post #2

Some pretty damning stuff: > OpenAI also instructs new hires on how to avoid scrutiny when they leave Apple. For example, Mr. Tan warns them not to tell Apple that they have taken jobs at OpenAI, so they can stay at Apple as long as they can. > Apple says it discovered a pattern of OpenAI recruits emailing themselves confidential information when leaving Apple, including Tan. > OpenAI apparently used confidential App…

I think a mandatory first thing for any engineer is to learn, understand and commit for life to the Ethics of their profession. It's a shame all these very picky recruitment processes and 'culture' of these giant companies didn't care about ethics and morality. Relevant articles in IEEE Code of Ethics: 3. to avoid real or perceived conflicts of interest whenever possible, and to disclose them to affected parties when…

Software people want to be “engineers” when it’s prestigious and (financially) beneficial, but avoid the actual classification when it comes with industry standards of behaviour.

Re: Apple sues OpenAI, accuses ex-employees of stealing trade secrets

#760

Post by Ar-Curunir »

Aurornis wrote: post #753
taurath wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is how you behave when you think you're so much smarter than everyone around you that consequences don't apply to you. Its also how some folks act like when they've done something they morally can't deal with - their subconscious starts throwing all sorts of obvious signs up until they get caught. I presume this was done for a giant pile of cash, stock, and probably a promise that nobody really cares if you sh…

> Its also how some folks act like when they've done something they morally can't deal with I think you’re projecting some other ideas on to this situation. These people weren’t driven by subconscious guilt about being paid a lot which drove them to commit literal crimes, in order to solidify their new high paying job. This doesn’t even make sense. People who do this are just corporate climbers who will use anything…

You think OpenAI didn’t encourage, or even tell them to steal apple IP? Like yes, the employees are not bastions of morality, but they didn’t do it out of insecurity, but because they were recruited to steal IP
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