"Lighten up" • Hacker News Board

Re: "Lighten up"

#751

Post by jtheory » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 6:56 PM UTC

cchurch wrote: post #732

Cushman wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same statement applies: if you say that sort of thing only to women, yes, it is sexist. If you treat both men and women that way equally, you aren't sexist, just an asshole. Sorry about the downvotes, it's a legitimate question to me.

What about the statement, "I think I'll take a seat next to the beautiful lady in the room." Is it clearly not treating her the same as everyone else? Yes. But is it sexism?

There's worse out there (well, that's just about always true), but sure: that's sexism.

It's pretty obvious if you take it apart a little.

You're singling out the one woman in the room, commenting on her physical characteristics, and saying that (presumably because of those physical attributes) you're going to sit next to her.

Now, why would you want to do that? Sit next to this person purely based on her gender and physical attractiveness?

Well, obviously you're not singling her out as the most expert person in the room, or anything else remotely related to your actual purpose for being there (I'm imagining this in a work environment).

Nope, you're sitting there to hit on her. You've already started, with the compliment. Possibly only very politely, but will she trust you to stop there? And will she now have to assume you're casting sidelong glances at her breasts when she points up at the whiteboard during the discussion?

And since this is a work situation (not a social one), she doesn't even have the option to excuse herself and go talk with other people if your advances are unwelcome.

Hope this helps make it a bit more clear.

Re: "Lighten up"

#752

Post by not-a-pc-whore » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 7:05 PM UTC

wisty wrote: post #734

__abc wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem. I'd rather we point out "sexist behavior" to help make it stop vs introduce an even more subtler sexist behavior In your senario: You, as a man, aware that she as a women, can get treated differently, so you will then treat her differently based on that. You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her…

> I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem. ... > You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her differently. Actually, everyone is treating her differently. The problem isn't just that people see men and women differently. That's almost impossible to change in the short term. In the short term, all you can do is try to get people to treat ea…

in the long run, for the survival of the race, we'd better continue to treat them differently. Get over it already!! Women are different! All this pc stuff is drivel.

Re: "Lighten up"

#753

Post by MartinCron » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 7:06 PM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #729

MartinCron wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to know WTF is going to offend people Or, you can pay attention to what does offend people and not do those things again in the future. It's not realistic to expect to never offend people, but everyone has a responsibility to understand what their actions do for other people.

you can pay attention to what does offend people and not do those things again in the future Yes, and following this course results in outcome #2: insufferable blandness. The range of things people find offensive is staggering. Indeed, many are offended by the notion that sometimes you just need to grow a thicker skin—which kind of proves the point.

Are you really saying that there's no middle ground between being actively offensive and being insufferably bland?

Context matters, there's a difference between what's appropriate in a professional setting and what's appropriate in (for example) art. Please, be as edgy and un-PC as you want, just don't do it in the workplace.

Re: "Lighten up"

#754

Post by not-a-pc-whore » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 7:07 PM UTC

junktest wrote: post #738

__abc wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem. I'd rather we point out "sexist behavior" to help make it stop vs introduce an even more subtler sexist behavior In your senario: You, as a man, aware that she as a women, can get treated differently, so you will then treat her differently based on that. You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her…

Let me add some more. People here being called "african-american", "asian-american", "japanese-american", "indian-american" (different from the "Indians" who are the original (native) Americans) and so on. This shows the inherent racist bigotry prevalent and the sense of entitlement felt by the WASPy americans. Why not call all Americans (whether by birth or naturalized) as Americans instead of differentiating? On th…

entitlement? How bout might makes right? Our forefathers won this place in war after war, so it's ours by right.

Re: "Lighten up"

#755

Post by burgerbrain » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 7:08 PM UTC

hythloday wrote: post #629

nickolai wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may consider torturing you first. "Oh come on, my grandma/dog/goldfish would write better code!!!" This would be a totally acceptable jab among guys, yet saying this to a female coworker would immediately be misinterpreted as "woman are bad at coding" promptly followed by the full wrath of the HR gender equality team.

Well, my advice stands, though if you're actively working to undermine your male colleague's confidence in their ability you might consider changing that. But if you insist on treating male and female colleagues differently then you spend your entire day saying to women, "you don't belong here and you never will". If you're comfortable with that and your manager's comfortable with that, please give me the name of you…

"if you're actively working to undermine your male colleague's confidence in their ability"

You don't have a solid grasp on male-to-male communication in the US workplace. Please keep in mind that perhaps your culture is different.

Re: "Lighten up"

#756

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 7:19 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #68

doki_pen wrote: post #64

I'm willing to bet that this type of behavior is a lot less likely in a start up. Something about assholes and corporate jobs. I'd like to think nothing like that would ever happen where I work. Does any women on hear have any first hand experience? One thing that did bother me about the article though. She complained about being asked to cook, but on her about page it says she loves to cook and looks for any excuse.…

Are we talking about the same startup field that puts people on stages at conferences with slide decks full of half naked women? In any case: she's not asking for a holy jihad. She's not claiming to be the victim of a violent crime. All that needs to happen is for people to stop telling her to "lighten up".

[deleted]

Re: "Lighten up"

#757

Post by badclient » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 7:20 PM UTC

So hey HN, if we really are gonna go on a crusade against objectification and gender roles, why does it almost always have to be about women playing victim?

Any guy could whip up blog posts about daily situations where specific (not necessarily superior) roles are imposed upon them by society simply because they are men.

I get told all the time by the ladies (even if jokingly) that I should put on some weight so I am more of a man.

I get asked all the time and it is assumed of me even more times to carry the bags because I am the man in the situation.

Aren't there centuries old idea about being a "gentleman"? Where you are expected to hold the door for the woman, buy her stuff etc.

Aren't there studies that men are much less likely to report rape than women? Shouldn't that be much more appalling to all than some of the pettier examples posted on HN recently?

Re: "Lighten up"

#758

Post by rmrm » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 7:36 PM UTC

in no way a contradiction of anything, or a statement of what is correct in the workplace just an observation on human relations as it relates to this topic:

A.) Women would not like to be treated by men as men treat other men in the workplace. You might think so, but I think you'd find it is also inappropriate, just in different ways.

B.) Men would not like to be treated as women often treat other women in the workplace. You might think so, but I think you'd find it is also inappropriate, just in different ways.

which leads me to:

C.) It is difficult for either gender to rigorously define appropriate asexual behavior towards one another, as their behavior is (generally) genuinely sex-aware.

Re: "Lighten up"

#759

Post by mattacular » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 7:37 PM UTC

orderly_chaos wrote: post #458

If you walk around alone in an unsafe neighborhood at night, you're asking for trouble. If you don't have a choice but to be in an unsafe neighborhood, hunker down and get to a point in your life when you can afford a safe neighborhood. In the programming world, this translates to : become a great programmer, and you will find yourself in a great programming environment (birds of a feather...). If you really love pro…

Well that was a rather specious mansplaination

Re: "Lighten up"

#760

Post by ajross » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 7:43 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #750

ajross wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? You're saying that standing alone in a room full of women of uniformly equal or higher social standing (suggestion: if you have kids, take a day off and bring them to any local parent/child activity -- it's likely to be 100% mothers) you'd feel comfortable blurting out "You're wearing a low cut dress! I know where I'm sitting!". Please (please!) try this. And bring a camera. I suspect you'll be very surpri…

Of course I've done it. I was at an all-mothers event mostly by accident. She glared at me and kind of laughed. My mother gave me a dirty look lol. Pretty much expected. Did you expect something bad to happen? Maybe it would be different if she were single and available?

So I guess the lesson is that because sp332 feels no shame in deeply embarrassing situations that no one else would. Yikes. I'd be bright red and backing slowly toward the door if that came out of my mouth. You, sir, are weird.