"Lighten up" • Hacker News Board

Re: "Lighten up"

#731

Post by tripzilch » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:51 PM UTC

davemel37 wrote: post #694

gurkendoktor wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. That is only the second thing that came to my mind. The other "danger" is being the only guy to act like that, then looking like a desperate "white knight" to the brogrammer crowd. Which sucks, because these exist and can be terribly creep…

the more I think about this problem, and the solutions being offered, the more I think everyone is missing the point. I think riding in and saving the day is just as "sexist." What the OP wants here is to be respected for who she is and her accomplishments as an individual, so that is the best solution. My guess is that most women accept this sexism as a part of life and have a way to handle it, but evey once in a wh…

And letting her know that if she wanted to say something about it, you'd have her back.

Re: "Lighten up"

#732

Post by cchurch » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:53 PM UTC

Cushman wrote: post #678

MPSimmons wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a question, and this is a real question, I'm not trying to be a dick here. Suppose that Katie is a very large, very unattractive woman, and the meaning behind the statement isn't, "I'm going to sit where I can take advantage of the low cut dress", but "I'm going to sit as far away from her as possible", is it still sexist?

Same statement applies: if you say that sort of thing only to women, yes, it is sexist. If you treat both men and women that way equally, you aren't sexist, just an asshole. Sorry about the downvotes, it's a legitimate question to me.

What about the statement, "I think I'll take a seat next to the beautiful lady in the room."

Is it clearly not treating her the same as everyone else? Yes. But is it sexism?

Re: "Lighten up"

#733

Post by tripzilch » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:58 PM UTC

yelsgib wrote: post #246

kevinalexbrown wrote: post #140

As the woman, I've been the only person in the group asked to put together a pot luck (presumably, this work is beneath the males). I've been the only one asked to take notes in a meeting... even if I'm the one who's presenting (because my title really should be 'secretary who we let on the servers'). This, more than the jokes and comments, is the meat of the problem. Inappropriate jokes can be much more easily addre…

In my mind, an important point here is that NO ONE should be asked to put together a pot luck. Why does anyone think this kind of thing is appropriate in the workplace? It makes me want to vomit when workplace boss becomes social boss. If anyone ever told me to put together a pot luck my immediate response would be "go fuck yourself."

I wondered about the pot luck thing, isn't the point of a pot luck that everyone brings something to eat for everyone? If she'd be the only one that had to bring something, it wouldn't be a pot luck any more, right?

At least, that's what I understand pot luck to mean? I like them a lot btw, very American thing, so we don't do it often enough here, but my hummus is always appreciated ;-)

Re: "Lighten up"

#734

Post by wisty » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 5:59 PM UTC

__abc wrote: post #704

mechanical_fish wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem. I'd rather we point out "sexist behavior" to help make it stop vs introduce an even more subtler sexist behavior In your senario: You, as a man, aware that she as a women, can get treated differently, so you will then treat her differently based on that. You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her…

> I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem.

...

> You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her differently.

Actually, everyone is treating her differently. The problem isn't just that people see men and women differently. That's almost impossible to change in the short term. In the short term, all you can do is try to get people to treat each other fairly.

I've no opinion on whether or not "Black History Month" is a good idea or not. Maybe it's a piss-poor token effort. Maybe Freeman doesn't care, because people treat him fairly, as he's outrageously successful, but other African Americans don't get treated fairly unless people make a big deal about doing so (which they usually do, thanks to a huge amount of anti-black-discrimination sentiment ... Latinos aren't so lucky). I'm not an American. I don't even know what "Black History Month" is.

There's three things that should happen - everyone should try to treat everyone else fairly, people should stick up for groups of people who are treated unfairly (whether they are a member of that group or not), and people should try not to think of people as belonging to any particular group. But when a group is treated unfairly, if you don't think of them as a group (on occasion), you can't stick up for them.

What I'm saying is that your shouldn't primarily consider someone to be defined by their (race / gender / height / whatever), but should occasionally stop to think about whether people might be getting treated unfairly, and do something about it if they are.

I'd consider saying "maybe I should take notes, because it's not fair that the girl always seems to do it, and (name) is busy with her presentation right now".

Re: "Lighten up"

#735

Post by ckpwong » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 6:02 PM UTC

kirpekar wrote: post #241

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" Anyone says that at my workplace and they will be shown the door in less than 120 seconds.

Honestly, I'm OK with the first part of the comment. It's the latter part which irks (most) people.

Had it been "Katie's got the low cut dress on today! Going out tonight?" then I think it's acceptable.

Re: "Lighten up"

#736

Post by mtoddh » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 6:03 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #549

mtoddh wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met Unrelated to the thread, but isn't this how you get know people you've just met?

The key is entitled. Men used to be able to assume they'd be welcomed. No need to ask.

Sorry but I don't see how your example of a guy initiating a dialogue with women he just met is an example of a power imbalance. Partly because you're guessing at how he feels - maybe he feels entitled or maybe he feels nervous at hell, because he knows there's a chance of rejection/getting rebuffed/etc.

Of course, maybe I'm biased since I met my wife by simply going up and talking to her while she was waiting in line to purchase a ticket for a boat ride :-)

Re: "Lighten up"

#737

Post by sheraz » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 6:04 PM UTC

Dear Katie,

Welcome to business, now grow up. I agree that the "lighten up" strategy is tiresome and ineffective. I don't know you, but it seems you need to grow some thicker skin and learn to hit back.

Do you think Meg Whitman, Carly Fiorna, or Arianna Huffington take shit from people? Hello no! It is called assertiveness and standing your ground.

Grow up, Katie. The real world has all kinds of people. People who grew up believing in gender roles. People who grew up thinking homosexuality is bad. People who grew up with no discipline from hippie parents. Putting all those personalities in the room can be chaotic. There are two lessons you need to learn:

1. assert yourself, and do it in a way that the offending party understands. HR and all these laws are crutches for solving the actual problems.

2. stop worrying about what others think about you.

Re: "Lighten up"

#738

Post by junktest » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 6:12 PM UTC

__abc wrote: post #704

mechanical_fish wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem. I'd rather we point out "sexist behavior" to help make it stop vs introduce an even more subtler sexist behavior In your senario: You, as a man, aware that she as a women, can get treated differently, so you will then treat her differently based on that. You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her…

Let me add some more. People here being called "african-american", "asian-american", "japanese-american", "indian-american" (different from the "Indians" who are the original (native) Americans) and so on. This shows the inherent racist bigotry prevalent and the sense of entitlement felt by the WASPy americans. Why not call all Americans (whether by birth or naturalized) as Americans instead of differentiating? On the same lines, I'd suggest calling white americans from Europe as "white caucasian americans", "italian-americans", "irish-americans", "british-americans" etc. Oh, and one more, China != Asia. Asia consists of a LOT many countries, not just China. A very relevant editorial cartoon last year by Steve Kelly of the Times-Picayune on the immigrant issue, too.

Re: "Lighten up"

#739

Post by chunkybacon » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 6:17 PM UTC

JulianMorrison wrote: post #660

chunkybacon wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rule is: some girls like it, some girls don't. You have to know what they will like before you open your mouth.

The rule is: don't assert your situational power. A woman alone or outnumbered among men is going to feel pressured. Comments you make won't be well received even if she is worried enough by the pressure to smile and hide her discomfort . She'll just curse your name to her friends after work. Contrast: if you're the only man in a room of women, and the boss is a woman, would you dare speak up with your "nice dress" t…

Believe it or not, I would dare speak up, even to my boss, if I thought she would appreciate the comment.

Re: "Lighten up"

#740

Post by 127 » Thu, Mar 22, 2012, 6:22 PM UTC

drhayes9 wrote: post #254

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

> Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Yes, Virginia, this is sexist. Holy hell, is it sexist. You are characterizing a woman's behavior in terms of how it makes you, as a man, feel. There are many reasons that a human might dress a particular way, but by characterizing it as a gender-based, "she wore that to make me do this" kind of transaction you have incor…

I can respect a woman by not "gazing" at her. A woman can respect me by not wearing slutty clothing. Elementary, Dr. Watson.