Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#751

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:29 AM UTC

shusson wrote: post #405

RealityNow wrote: post #290

It's incredibly ironic that a company that apparently cares about diversity enough to have a "Vice President for Diversity" fired an employee for presenting an opposing viewpoint - to their diversity policy of all things. Further evidence that Google and the other large institutions don't actually give a rat's ass about "diversity". Diversity has absolutely nothing to do with diversity of thought, and is only concern…

> We have a culture of anti-intellectualism and dogmatism around certain topics that for whatever reason are considered sacred and not allowed to be challenged (ie. political correctness), and its disgraceful. From a personal perspective I get where you are coming from, but from a professional perspective it makes no sense. There are ways to present opposing viewpoints in a workplace without offending half of the peo…

[deleted]

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#752

Post by peak_body_yo » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:29 AM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #694

ThomPete wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender based diversity programs are hurting more than they are helping because they are confusing the role of gender diversity with the role of talent diversity. These programs are most likely not responsible for qualified women getting jobs and even if they are they are also responsible for qualified men not getting the jobs so nothing is really gained. The idea of qualification is something that is misunderstood fa…

The cold, hard facts prove that unless we force a change, it will not change. The simple counter argument to this, and what changed my mind utterly, was that the number of woman on boards never changed. "Women will setup companies" was what they said in the 70s, 50 years ago. It never worked until we started forcing it. There's still a ridiculously small percentage of female chairs. There's still a ridiculously small…

> Because gender discrimination is rife

Please stop making these unqualified statements on very touchy subjects

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#753

Post by cabalamat » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:31 AM UTC

observation wrote: post #738

My 2 cents. I did write an essay but this is the TLDR. Google has made a giant political mistake. Everybody saw this coming. Straight into the fire, Google must have known that even as they did it. If Google's real aim was non-talent-bias, we already know the solution: blind hiring. Let's use a little metacognition here. People on HN are highly likely to be in the Bubble (same way as average academic must be left of…

> Somebody as brilliant as Peter Thiel would be fired today, or more likely: never hired

Or never apply to work for Google in the first place. There are fashions in morality just as there are in clothing ( http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html ) , and who can predict now what ideas may become crimethink to Google's HR department in future?

If you're a talented, in-demand programmer, why work for a company that might arbirarily sack you based on your opinions? This doesn't mean Google will fail -- they have sewn up the web advertising market tight enough that they could weather a decade of bad decision-making.

I'll leave the last words to PG:

> Almost certainly, there is something wrong with you if you don't think things you don't dare say out loud.

and:

> I suspect the statements that make people maddest are those they worry might be true.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#754

Post by heisenbit » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:32 AM UTC

sp527 wrote: post #435

postnihilism wrote: post #275

This feels like the blue and black (white and gold) dress. It boggles my mind that people don't see the fundamental and toxic misogyny in this 'manifesto'. Please have a woman you care about in your life, preferably one in tech, read this and then ask their opinion of the piece. The "treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group" sentiment of the author is fine except that we have hundreds of…

> Diversity programs are not about lowering the bar As an Asian male who once upon a time had to apply to colleges, I'd like to see some evidence for that assertion. To be clear, I (and hopefully many other people commenting here) have no problem with outreach, anti-harrassment, and other such workplace training initiatives. It's unfortunate that we can't all achieve a baseline level of civility that abstracts away a…

You got a good point. These days social class is more a determining factor for chances to move up than it has ever been. The risk with race, gender or other policies based on past evils is fighting the last war.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#755

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:32 AM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #53

adbge wrote: post #7

An excellent opportunity to re-read PG's essay, "What You Can't Say". [1] "What scares me is that there are moral fashions too. They're just as arbitrary, and just as invisible to most people. But they're much more dangerous. Fashion is mistaken for good design; moral fashion is mistaken for good. Dressing oddly gets you laughed at. Violating moral fashions can get you fired, ostracized, imprisoned, or even killed."…

Applying the notion of "moral fashion" to this doesn't seem appropriate. It also shows a certain blindness to the problems of sexism and racism especially in the context of this former employee's comments.

[deleted]

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#756

Post by peoplewindow » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:32 AM UTC

vl wrote: post #610

RealityNow wrote: post #290

It's incredibly ironic that a company that apparently cares about diversity enough to have a "Vice President for Diversity" fired an employee for presenting an opposing viewpoint - to their diversity policy of all things. Further evidence that Google and the other large institutions don't actually give a rat's ass about "diversity". Diversity has absolutely nothing to do with diversity of thought, and is only concern…

>Further evidence that Google and the other large institutions don't actually give a rat's ass about "diversity". There is a market force pushing software companies into leftist positions (since influential demographics in the industry are strongly pro-left; also this creates positive feedback loop). In this context Google’s behavior is rational, and this guy tried to fight it with reason and argument (I was laughing…

It's not market forces. It's the fact that they hire so many new grads. Lack of mental/political/ideological diversity in universities leads to lack of diversity inside Google too (and Facebook and ...)

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#757

Post by jamesrcole » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:33 AM UTC

By doing this, Google is sending a strong signal that they will not tolerate a diversity of opinions.

That does not bode well for them, for a restrictive intellectual environment is anathema to the kind of intelligent people they want to hire to keep the company competitive.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#758

Post by peak_body_yo » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:34 AM UTC

themacguffinman wrote: post #597

sp527 wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Diversity programs are not about lowering the bar As an Asian male who once upon a time had to apply to colleges, I'd like to see some evidence for that assertion. To be clear, I (and hopefully many other people commenting here) have no problem with outreach, anti-harrassment, and other such workplace training initiatives. It's unfortunate that we can't all achieve a baseline level of civility that abstracts away a…

> as long as we continue to perpetuate diversity practices that emphasize sex and race in any way, some classes of people are going to be harmed The whole reason diversity practices exist is because "some classes of people" are already being harmed. Without "diversity practices", we already have practices that emphasize and discriminate sex and race, except they happen to be the status quo. Attacking diversity for ha…

> The whole reason diversity practices exist is because "some classes of people" are already being harmed. Without "diversity practices", we already have practices that emphasize and discriminate sex and race, except they happen to be the status quo.

Citation needed and it needs to be relevant in a liberal tech company environment.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#759

Post by lurker69 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:35 AM UTC

vl wrote: post #610

RealityNow wrote: post #290

It's incredibly ironic that a company that apparently cares about diversity enough to have a "Vice President for Diversity" fired an employee for presenting an opposing viewpoint - to their diversity policy of all things. Further evidence that Google and the other large institutions don't actually give a rat's ass about "diversity". Diversity has absolutely nothing to do with diversity of thought, and is only concern…

>Further evidence that Google and the other large institutions don't actually give a rat's ass about "diversity". There is a market force pushing software companies into leftist positions (since influential demographics in the industry are strongly pro-left; also this creates positive feedback loop). In this context Google’s behavior is rational, and this guy tried to fight it with reason and argument (I was laughing…

This market force might actually change in future.

In this case it seems that James planned all this to happen and is gonna sue Google:

> "$1 million in bonuses" was changed to "$100 million as a compensation" after Damore was "fired" by a Mr Kunda Píča whom I have never heard of; Damore plans to sue Google; he had previously complained to NLRB and wants to argue that his dismissal was a revenge which would be illegal. See a Damore's defiant answer to Reuters.

And about PR, while vocal left leaning activists might cheer decision to fire him, conservative and centrists media used this as great point to smear Google as leftist propaganda. This is great talking point for proving accusations that google manipulates search results to prefer certain political agenda. Recently Jordan Peterson caused quite a stir when his youtube and gmail accounts were revoked, YouTube decided it will start isolating videos with controversial views even if they dont brake ToS...

This moves will be used by anti PC camp a lot to steer users to alternatives to googles products.

Facebook and Twitter already pushed a lot of potential users away by similar behavior, alternative platforms are getting more and more relevant. Its hard to say if this vocal PC SJW activists are just vocal minority or actually majority talking with their wallets. Based on results of recent US elections and financial problems of some feminists and left leaning publications, and on majority of comments on uncensored pages; I would say that PC ship is probably sinking fast.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#760

Post by bolololo12 » Tue, Aug 08, 2017, 10:38 AM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #694

ThomPete wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender based diversity programs are hurting more than they are helping because they are confusing the role of gender diversity with the role of talent diversity. These programs are most likely not responsible for qualified women getting jobs and even if they are they are also responsible for qualified men not getting the jobs so nothing is really gained. The idea of qualification is something that is misunderstood fa…

The cold, hard facts prove that unless we force a change, it will not change. The simple counter argument to this, and what changed my mind utterly, was that the number of woman on boards never changed. "Women will setup companies" was what they said in the 70s, 50 years ago. It never worked until we started forcing it. There's still a ridiculously small percentage of female chairs. There's still a ridiculously small…

You forgot there's still a ridiculously small percentage of female coal miners