Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

lesnumeriques.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

741–750 of 811 posts

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#741

Post by Fnoord »

worik wrote: post #686
Fnoord wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot do a chargeback on iDeal, but I don't think that is related to it being a product of commercial banks. The American companies Mastercard and Visa are subject to American rule of law. In the case of a criminal or authoritarian president, such is an issue. You can see how Russian assets got frozen and SWIFT stopped working for Russia after they did the full scale invasion of Ukraine. Should the USA invade Gr…

> You cannot do a chargeback on iDeal, Odd. How is a transaction reversed after a dispute?

You can't do that with an iDeal transaction. And it is a reason I (European, preferably using European products) often go for a debitcard instead, using Visa/MC... that, or PayPal. But if you have too many disputes on PayPal, they'll simply close your account.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#742

Post by Fnoord »

baq wrote: post #657
Fnoord wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iDeal can also be used for recurring payment. I set one up yesterday. If you like Tikkie, you may like bunq as well. This is kind of a problem with Wero though [1]: > The Wero app can be installed on any mobile device or tablet running iOS 16 or later, or Android version 9 or later. We recommend updating your device to the latest version of its operating system for maximum performance, convenience and security. > It…

banks really like hardware attestation and putting that in laptops and PCs causes serious pushback from people like us here. not an option to not have hardware attestation on mobile - it's been there since day 1, there's nothing to protest against anymore

I wonder if it will work on OSes like SailfishOS, LineageOS, GrapheneOS, and the like.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#743

Post by therealdrag0 »

righthand wrote: post #558
1234letshaveatw wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another American here, I find these self loathing kind of posts to be so sophomoric and embarrassing

No sophomoric and embarrassing is electing the same unqualified rapist pedophile moron back into power again.

That’s insulting to sophomores.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#744

Post by swiftcoder »

Xirdus wrote: post #688
swiftcoder wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the merchant can unilaterally decide not to use it If they do so, they are telling the card issuer that they are happy to be on the hook for chargebacks/fraud. It's not an decision without consequences

Are they, though? Does the end customer get more post-transaction protections when not using 3D Secure? That doesn't sound right. I'd think the merchant is on the hook exactly as much either way.

> Does the end customer get more post-transaction protections when not using 3D Secure?

That's not quite how it works. The merchant gets less protections, because they are opting to allow potentially fraudulent transactions.

The difference is whether Visa eats the cost of dealing with the fraudulent transaction

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#745

Post by microtonal »

Fnoord wrote: post #742
baq wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

banks really like hardware attestation and putting that in laptops and PCs causes serious pushback from people like us here. not an option to not have hardware attestation on mobile - it's been there since day 1, there's nothing to protest against anymore

I wonder if it will work on OSes like SailfishOS, LineageOS, GrapheneOS, and the like.

I think for many banks, Wero will be implemented in the banks' apps (like iDEAL currently is). So then the situation is probably the same as now (where most, but not all banking apps work without Play remote attestation).

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#746

Post by ninalanyon »

eesmith wrote: post #675
ninalanyon wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway passed a law quite recently forbidding permanent card only shops, cafes, etc. As far as I can tell this was done for two reasons, firstly card only is discriminatory and secondly to improve the countries resilience in the face of cyber attacks. You can only be electronic payments only if you are a temporary sales location such as a flea market, ice cream van, etc.

Oh, interesting! I read https://www.newsinenglish.no/2024/10/01/cash-cleared-for-a-c... and https://www.lifeinnorway.net/norway-strengthens-right-to-pay... . The point of budgeting via "cash stuffing" instead of the invisible shuffling of money through a bank card, is something that in retrospect is something similar to what I did when I was younger - the cash in my wallet is getting low, so I should hold back on exp…

Minibanks charge a fee if they are not your bank, they have been doing that for a very long time. But you can get cash at many supermarkets.

The proportion of payments that are electronic has been very high for many years, cheques were effectively abolished thirty years ago and we have very rapid (seconds) and easy to use ways of transferring money between private individuals knowing only their mobile phone number (Vipps).

Nothing much has changed in the last couple of years except for the new law requiring the acceptance of cash and the issuing of a leaflet on resilience by the DSB to every household in the country which along with saying you should keep several days worth of water and food also says keep enough cash for several days use.

And this year has been declared a year of Total Defence.

See https://www.dsb.no/en/risk-vulnerability-and-preparedness/

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#747

Post by tom1337890 »

twoodfin wrote: post #570
injidup wrote: post #505

In Austria I'm always in the situation that shops and restaurants are unhappy that I pay by card because they claim that even a direct debit card cost them some large percentage through the terminal provider. Will these new systems remove the middle man skimming that MasterCard/Visa has been doing to small businesses?

If they really thought this was valueless skimming, why wouldn’t they just refuse to take these cards?

Because customers like the cards. Not restaurants. And customer is king. There are few businesses who do not accept it. Some hair dressers, some alternative bars, etc.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#748

Post by brnt »

lobocinza wrote: post #737
brnt wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American consumers have no democratic control of that duopoly either.

To be fair both are publicly traded and owning shares would give you voting rights.

Point is: traded companies function like a democracy in which money is a vote, which is the opposite of democracy.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#749

Post by snovv_crash »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #567
snovv_crash wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Africa they've had this since ~2005 with the Mpesa system. It basically transfers cellphone credits as payment. In certain regions everyone with a dumb phone was hooked up and you could do anything from buy a coconut from a guy on the side of the road to pay your taxi driver to pay at the supermarket.

Wow, this is a great reply! "In Africa" -> Can you share a few countries? Google tells me that East Africa is the biggest users: Kenya, Tanzania, etc. (No hate on the use of "In Africa here"... as Google tells me it is used in at least 10 different African countries.)

Anywhere that MTN (telecom provider) operates. East and southern Africa mostly.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#750

Post by tpm »

ffritz wrote: post #575
grey-area wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be cheaper though and it also reduces the reliance on an untrustworthy former ally.

The payer couldn't care less about how much the store pays for the transaction. He or she just wants to tap with their phone, and the default here are Visa/MC cards. In addition to the transaction price not being an argument for the payer, Wero also afaik does not have as much consumer protection as (certainly some) credit cards offer. I also bet the average person doesn't understand or care about the whole political…

In addition, this only starts in 13 countries. There are 27 EU members. So there is a lot of big ambitions but not followed by actions. Which is what we are sadly used to.

So when I from Slovakia want to buy something in a French eshop, I'm out of luck. And when on a vacation, can't use this system either, while a French person on a vacation in Slovakia can't use it either. My guess is people will mostly continue to use credit/debit cards.

Post reply on HN