> That's 50 people serving the needs of 1,000,000. Doing a little bit of division, that means that every single member of the Flutter team is responsible for the needs of 20,000 Flutter developers! That ratio is clearly unworkable for any semblance of customer support. If "only" 50 people working on a project used by one million people was unworkably low then every single successful project out there would be doomed.…
It absolutely reads this way, and this person is in for a rude awakening. I thought all the Flutter team was laid off from Google anyways, effectively making this project dead in the water. Looks like there is a someone left over that can't let it go and just move on from the past.
We're forking Flutter
741–748 of 748 posts
Re: We're forking Flutter
#742Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe I need to copy-paste the text from the buttons so I can accurately ask which one I should click. Maybe I have a screen reader that needs to access that text to read it out loud. Maybe I want to copy-paste the UI elements into a translation program so I can understand them in my own language. Maybe I want to copy the UI text so I can make a better re-implementation of your site...
Those are some of the most niche use cases I've ever heard, and that is stretching it even on HN, much less anyone in the non HN bubble. Things like screen readers work just fine on non browser apps that don't have selectable text, for example.
Re: We're forking Flutter
#743Earlier quoted context omitted.
Those are some of the most niche use cases I've ever heard, and that is stretching it even on HN, much less anyone in the non HN bubble. Things like screen readers work just fine on non browser apps that don't have selectable text, for example.
Copy-pasting UI elements to ask for help on support forums is absolutely not a niche use case. You're asking for a world of even more terrible screenshots in support channels. Truly cursed software.
Re: We're forking Flutter
#744Earlier quoted context omitted.
Flutter Web is for web apps, not web sites, so much of those concerns don't necessarily apply. And it's not "impossible" simply because Chrome itself runs on Skia which until recently Flutter did too, so clearly they were able to implement scrolling at least one time correctly.
> Flutter Web is for web apps, not web sites When you want to draw this distinction: most web apps will still suffer heavily for many users if they use Flutter. To begin with, few web apps don’t use text, scrolling, or form fields. Games are almost the only thing that may not suffer, or only barely suffer. But beyond that: well, that’s what they say its purpose is, but at least two of the three times I’ve encountered…
Re: We're forking Flutter
#745Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Flutter Web is for web apps, not web sites When you want to draw this distinction: most web apps will still suffer heavily for many users if they use Flutter. To begin with, few web apps don’t use text, scrolling, or form fields. Games are almost the only thing that may not suffer, or only barely suffer. But beyond that: well, that’s what they say its purpose is, but at least two of the three times I’ve encountered…
Could you be more specific with what the browsers aren't exposing properly? Because in my experience, targeting WebGL+WebAssembly is pretty much exactly the same as targeting OpenGL+GLFW. I use my own renderer made with bare OpenGL + C++ though, not Flutter. All the things you have mentioned (scroll amount, overscroll behavior) are under the control of the GUI library and don't have much to do with what the browser e…
I use Firefox, Sway, Linux, laptop with precise touchpad.
Normally, I get smooth scrolling at such-and-such a rate of pixels-per-centimetre, with momentum so-and-so, and since comparatively recently, particular overscroll behaviour.
On that site, I get janky scrolling at a somewhat slower rate, with no momentum, and no overscroll. (… and scrolling leftwards in the carousel triggers go-back-a-page rather than scrolling left, so you need to scroll right a little first to “unstick” it, but I believe this is something Flutter could have worked around.) It’s painful. Very painful.
It’s not possible to fix this within the scope of browser mouse events. They’re just the wrong primitive. The consequence is that you can only get native scroll behaviour if you use an actual scrolling area. Which you could do, with mild compromise to the pure-canvas approach, just an invisible one and watch what happens with it, rather than paying attention to scroll events. And that’s pretty much the approach you need to use to get good results: compromise on pure-canvas, and do bits and pieces with actual DOM. For scrolling. For links. For images. For text. For inputs. Oh… huh, look at that, we actually just want real DOM stuff everywhere. Fancy that.
Now you might not immediately get such a bad experience for scrolling: I seem to recall hearing that Safari on macOS basically implements inertia before sending the events, and sends the events with inertia applied. That solves some problems, but causes others.
Actually, I meant two distinct things by “overscroll behaviour”:
① Does it let you scroll past 100% a little and then pull it back, as is increasingly normal, or show some indicator that you’ve reached the end, like Android has historically done, or just do nothing, like all computers historically did?
② Scroll chaining, the CSS overscroll-behavior property, to do with nesting scrolling areas. And note that different platforms behave differently. If you do pure-canvas rendering, you’re stuck: the browser has some of the details needed (and is unlikely to ever tell them: they’re involved implementation detail that varies by platform), and you have some of the details needed, and you can’t really collaborate, it’s just not a good mixture.
When I speak of the browser being a compositor, I refer to how scrolling is no longer implemented in a blocking fashion in the UI thread; these days it’s in a different thread, so that it can implement viewport scrolling independently of content rendering, in order to maintain consistent frame rate even in the presence of slow drawing. Also to do various other tricks to avoid missing frames, mostly platform-specific and involved. Web content will never get that power.
Re: We're forking Flutter
#746Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Flutter is the best thing that happened to UI development since Qt. Most people don't realize how many apps written in Flutter they use daily, simply because it's impossible to tell I agree with you that Flutter has been a boon for cross platform development, but to say it's impossible to tell you're using a Flutter app is a bit of an exaggeration. I have no problem identifying Flutter apps. Not that I care as they…
How do you do that? I just opened my phone, and the last app I used was a food delivery app. How can I figure out if it's a Flutter app or a native one?
Re: We're forking Flutter
#747Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Flutter is the best thing that happened to UI development since Qt. Most people don't realize how many apps written in Flutter they use daily, simply because it's impossible to tell I agree with you that Flutter has been a boon for cross platform development, but to say it's impossible to tell you're using a Flutter app is a bit of an exaggeration. I have no problem identifying Flutter apps. Not that I care as they…
How do you know this isn't the toupee fallacy? You spotted a few correctly so you assume you always spot correctly - but there might be more you miss. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Toupee_fallacyhttps://rational...
Re: We're forking Flutter
#748Earlier quoted context omitted.
Over time I have become convinced that the, fit in argument is not something that actual users care for. The sometime subjective aesthetic reasoning doesn’t mean the application can’t succeed. office ribbon is an example
A lot of users do care for fit and finish, but stick around with crappy UI because it’s not worth rage-quitting over. They do move when better UI + same-ish functionality comes along. The one sort-of exception to this is Enterprise Sales, where the people buying the software don’t always use it. But even there, corporate purchasers do get flak in annual reviews / feedback cycles for especially crappy enterprise softw…