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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

741–750 of 829 posts

Re: "Lighten up"

#741

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We discussed it in depth after, because we are close friends (which helped). It wasn't so much exposing her as being offended; she was put out by the treatment, but had gotten used to it over time. To the extent it didn't bother her any more (the more I tell this anecdote, the more awful it seems really!). When I raised it as an issue, publicly, it brought all of that back. In addition it made her feel that everyone…

Thanks for the followup! Very informative. Unfortunately, it only leads to more questions, as you seem to clearly understand (Clearly understanding your confusion seems an odd thing to say). Luckily, you were close friends. This makes things much easier. This lends weight to my worry about sticking up for other people when they show no signs of bother. Should I have been offended for Amy? I don't know her. As you poi…

I agree that the least harmful approach is to let the victim initiate the defense, but like you said, people might feel awkward raising the alarm.

The underlying problem here is that we are taught (by our culture) that: 1. It is okay to be subtly sexist but even worst, 2. We're being bitchy (uncool) if we defend ourselves (I'd argue that it's part of our intense worship of "being cool" but that's another topic)

I think we would be in a better position to tackle these problems of subtle sexism if it was more socially accepted (and encouraged) to stand up for yourselves (especially for females to stand up for themselves).

A side note: I read once that when asked, females would attack a rapist who is raping their friend or sibling but would not attack when they are themselves being raped by the rapist.

I think this stems from the theory 2 above: that we are viewed as bitchy if defend ourselves, but we are praised if we defend someone else.

Re: "Lighten up"

#742

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> Personally, I recognize that I have an unfortunate automatic physiological response to breasts. You've been programmed to think this is bad, unhealthy or unnatural by people with an agenda. There's another school of thought that says it's ok, normal, natural, and healthy. Humans are hard-wired for sex and we've been having sex like rabbits for millions of years otherwise we wouldn't be here. There are many situatio…

You've been programmed to think this is bad, unhealthy or unnatural by people with an agenda No I haven't. I don't think it's the least bit bad or unhealthy. I simply want to engage my friend as a friend, not glance at her tits every ten seconds. Performing physical actions that imply attraction would introduce a power balance that I don't want in a friendship.

Yes you have. Jedi hand wave. :-)

Re: "Lighten up"

#743

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In my mind, an important point here is that NO ONE should be asked to put together a pot luck. Why does anyone think this kind of thing is appropriate in the workplace? It makes me want to vomit when workplace boss becomes social boss. If anyone ever told me to put together a pot luck my immediate response would be "go fuck yourself."

I'm not a professional chef, I'm a sysadmin. Cooking isn't part of my job description. I don't want to be forced to eat food prepared by people who don't have food handlers' cards, and I don't want my coworkers to feel hurt because I don't want to eat what they cooked and left in their car. Want to improve morale and do teambuilding? Get a cater, or go somewhere for lunch.

Yea, seriously. WTF is a food handler's card? It's not like a medical license.

Re: "Lighten up"

#744

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> This makes no sense. From the post: > ... Start wearing sweaters, even though my breasts feel like they're boiling in there (yup, that's one reason women like low tops, guys)? ... Comfort is her reason for wearing low cut tops. No need to speculate further than that. To flip this around to me, I know that at times, I've done the bare minimum in the clothing department. Sometimes this means getting into my clubbing…

Do you see it as unreasonable that people in both situations pay you more attention?

Unreasonable? No.

Intended on my part? No. (That was my point)

Re: "Lighten up"

#745

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Yeah, the conversation here has been so much more enlightened.

I've generally found that when it comes to matters of gender and sexuality, the more "enlightened" one claims to be, the far less actual experience in life, with real people, one actually has. The college/twenty-something years in particular are wonderful for many things, and universities are wonderful for many things, but one thing they're bad at is giving you a realistic view of the world as it actually is, and peo…

Yeah, the number of "this is how things should be" type comments here is silly. As if we can wish away the neurological aspects of human beings we don't like or that don't fit with whatever utopian ideology they espouse.

It's naive but I did expect at least a little pragmatism from this group.

Re: "Lighten up"

#746
You know, I come to HN mostly for the enlightened commentary on the news articles that are posted. Yet anytime something related to sexism in the industry comes up, I am stunned at some of the comments.

Yes. It is hard being a woman in the industry. It is hard being a woman in general. But the worst part is seeing how many men think we act like an entirely different species, and its disheartening. Sometimes, comments speak of women as if we don't even read this site.

Obviously there are many cultural and sociological norms at play here, but I expect more from this community. I guess thats my fault.

Re: "Lighten up"

#747

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As a man, I've handled this by being the one to turn it into an obvious sexist thing by making a joke aloud "yeah, Sarah, boss says it's your turn to take notes again because, you know, you're the only girl at the table :P. Ha ha ha ha." Everyone laughs, boss realizes what he's doing, Sarah is off the hook.

Yes, your comment may get Sarah off the hook, but I'd probably feel even more offended by that comment than by the boss' request. If she has the courage to display any disdain over your overtly sexism comment though, perhaps the boss would take (mental) note. At the same time, the boss may not even be aware of the sexism in the initial request--he/she may rationalize the request/decision after-the-fact, even if it we…

How is that remotely offensive? I think you need to re-read his post.

Re: "Lighten up"

#748

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Same statement applies: if you say that sort of thing only to women, yes, it is sexist. If you treat both men and women that way equally, you aren't sexist, just an asshole. Sorry about the downvotes, it's a legitimate question to me.

What about the statement, "I think I'll take a seat next to the beautiful lady in the room." Is it clearly not treating her the same as everyone else? Yes. But is it sexism?

It would make me uncomfortable. I wouldn't say anything, because I'd be told to 'lighten up'.

Why would it make me uncomfortable? It would subtly remind everyone in the room, including me, that I'm different. And it would place an (unintended, I'm sure) emphasis on my physical attributes, which have nothing to do with my ability to design or program software.

Re: "Lighten up"

#749
post #653

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Via google: Girl: A young or relatively young woman A young woman of a specified kind or having a specified job - a career girl Women who mix socially or belong to a particular group, team, or profession - I look forward to having lunch with the girls Perhaps this is a language issue, but it's just as common for me to call my male friends 'boys' as my female friends 'girls', even though all are adults. Not sure what…

There can be a lot of hang overs in languages that aim to demean and diminish people. Calling a black man "boy", or a woman "girl" is a way to belittle them. "Boy" vs "Girl" is an interesting one. It's not uncommon, as you pointed out, to call adult women "girl". However you rarely in the straight male world do people refer to adult men as "boy". However in the gay male world, sometimes "boy" is used (e.g. this colle…

For men: I'm hanging with the "guys" or "bros." For women: I'm hanging with the "girls." (you can't say "ladies" in this context, you can't use "sisters," you could use "gals" but it would sound like you were from Texas).

Re: "Lighten up"

#750
post #708
post #692

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Yeah, why not? In a room full of men, the comment would be made to the other men, but for the benefit of that woman. It would be flippant and funny. In a room full of women, the comment would be more personal, and I would have to keep the tone extremely light because the more serious I am, the more vulnerable I am.

Seriously? You're saying that standing alone in a room full of women of uniformly equal or higher social standing (suggestion: if you have kids, take a day off and bring them to any local parent/child activity -- it's likely to be 100% mothers) you'd feel comfortable blurting out "You're wearing a low cut dress! I know where I'm sitting!". Please (please!) try this. And bring a camera. I suspect you'll be very surpri…

Of course I've done it. I was at an all-mothers event mostly by accident. She glared at me and kind of laughed. My mother gave me a dirty look lol. Pretty much expected. Did you expect something bad to happen? Maybe it would be different if she were single and available?
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