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Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

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Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#741

Post by MrMan »

naasking wrote: post #721
sn9 wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that if you don't personally know the views of the people involved, racist jokes are often indistinguishable from hate. Outside of a context where the humor is understood by all like a stand-up comedy act, you aren't entitled to how other people perceive your behavior. If you walk like a racist and talk like a racist, people are just gonna assume you're a racist. If that's a problem for you, there's a…

The point is you don't know how this person walks or talks, you only see a fragment of a conversation typically taken out of context. I hope you see the problem here, to say nothing of the problem with assuming someone is intrinsically evil unless they toe your specific line. Furthermore I'm entitled to argue for what I think are good practices for communicating online, just like everyone else.

words are actions in a forum where you cant see anything about a person but their words

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#742

Post by randomasian »

barry-cotter wrote: post #237
jimbokun wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and they still try to use as money proxies for race But that's completely legitimate. If black people (for example) are systemically poorer than white people as a group, it makes sense to give them more help. It's favoring a wealthy black person over a poor white person, that's arguably problematic.

But that's completely legitimate. If [Asian|Jewish] people (for example) are systemically [better at university] than white people as a group, it makes sense to [hold them to much higher standards than white people in university admissions].

You said: But that's completely legitimate. If [Asian|Jewish] people (for example) are systemically [better at university] than white people as a group, it makes sense to [hold them to much higher standards than white people in university admissions].

As an Asian man, i'll agree. Except instead of levelers, these are usually used as bludgeons to punish groups rather than leveling groups. Based on the UMich and other college lawsuits, what we found out was that Asians were held to higher standards, except Jewish people werent. Neither were wealthy Protestants. Neither were well connected white people.

The "Progressive" systems used the excuse of DEI to help discriminate against Asians and others they didnt like.

Now, you ask the same policy makers, can I as an Asian man be allowed into the basketball or football team, and they look at you like "but youre not qualified"

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#743

Post by MrMan »

zamalek wrote: post #556
dbrueck wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You, as a white person, have been a victim of racism? Have I been told to leave somewhere because they don't want "whiteys" there? Yes. Have I been yelled at for being a "honky"? Yes. Have I been told things like, "all white people are ___"? Yes. Have I been in a group when someone said, "don't give any to the white kid" ? Yes. Have I been threatened with violence with the sole given reason being that I am white? Y…

> Have I been told to leave somewhere [...] Why do some black people hate white people? Because their great grandparent perished on a cotton plantation, because their friend was hunted by some white folks in a truck, because their friend was choked to death by a white policeman, because your race is targeted by disenfranchisement. Why do some white people hate black people? Because they hate black people. There is a…

word!

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#744

Post by [deleted] »

spacephysics wrote: post #89
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's definitely true. As an example, if you're a low-class white male kid, you're actually quite disadvantaged compared to the general population (for example in educational outcomes). But the DEI initiatives in most companies won't recognize this, as they often don't look past skin color and gender.

My brother is about 8 years younger than I, and we both grew up in a small city, but city none the less. There really wasn’t talk about sexuality/gender beyond someone being gay vs straight, or some group of kids being in a gang (there were a few subgroups depending on ethnicity, which they proclaimed themselves) He’s nearly out of high school, and now it’s very much focused on DEI. After the states standardized test…

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#745

Post by dkn775 »

DrThunder wrote: post #431
tacitusarc wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a different risk with DEI, and I’d sure love your perspective if you’re willing to give it. I think there’s a certain class of people (mostly young and white though the fact they are white is explainable as a statistical artifact) who feel empowered by DEI to push for changes that are meaningless and burdensome, but give them a feeling of power and virtuousness. This includes changing away from “master” as a br…

There is power in victimhood now. If you can prove you're a victim or prove you're submitting to a certain group you've "victimized" then you are put at the top of the order. You become part of essentially a religious cult and given certain "powers" that you can bash the "sinners" over the head with. I think you're exactly right here, the largest proponents of this stuff tend to be white and left wing (mostly women).…

Anyone who has worked in government in a high crime city is aware of this. So many nonprofits bank off crime and destruction of the black community by “studying”, “studying some more”, “evaluating the study”, “working with stakeholders”, “drafting a strategic plan” etc. it’s actually an easy way for white people that have mediocre prospects to advance. It’s a low rigor environment where buzzwords mean a lot and underachievers can profit off of black people

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#746

Post by dkn775 »

OP as a black person myself, I want you to know you may not feel this way, but when the chips are down a lot of times it’s black people you can count on to have your back, not see you as violent when your a little angry, and give you a leg up when they are in a position to. You can have these things and still resent the diversity thing that white people push, which I believe is a scam and actually often contains a lot of racism they don’t know about

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#747

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #738
tptacek wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what is "neo-Marxism"? When he's not busy "waging moral war on Disney", Rufo is full of weird stuff like this --- "neo-Marxism" is a turn of phrase most famous for its use in Jordan Peterson's nonsensical coinage "postmodern neo-Marxism". Marxism is distinguished as an ideology by totalizing class consciousness. That's the opposite of wokeness, which ratifies identity politics. In fact, "wokeness" is a fault li…

> Marxism is distinguished as an ideology by totalizing class consciousness. That's the opposite of wokeness, which ratifies identity politics. It's an ideology that replaces Marxism's "totalizing class consciousness" with a "totalizing race consciousness." > Just how much work is the word "neo" doing in that name? A lot, and the "Marxism" is doing very little. It's a clumsy construction. But the meaning is clear in…

So it's... not Marxism at all. None of the rest of Marx makes sense if you replace "class" with "race". Who owns the means of production? Or is it the means of something else now? It's like calling capitalism "neo-fascism", or, for that matter, taking any ${BADTHING} and attaching neo- to it to craft a slur.

The meaning is clear in context because you know who he's talking about. But you just called this "the best description you've seen", and it's not a description in the least.

I don't care that you disagree with DEI types and with wokeism in general. I have my own qualms! But don't elevate hucksters like Rufo. And stop following him on Twitter. He's a clown.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#748

Post by Manuel_D »

kodah wrote: post #657
Manuel_D wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I've ever been discriminated against for being Latin. Quite the contrary, I likely had significant advantages on account of my race in university admissions. I'm not sure if I've had such advantages in tech hiring, as I don't outwardly advertise my Latin identity precisely because I don't want progressive race-realists to use it as a factor in hiring, but if they did find it it probably did help. Unlike…

Every story is going to be different I think. Having tools that marginally shift our statistical outcomes makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense to me is the people who propose specific proportions as a set of diversity criteria, as it's difficult to determine what those proportions should be. At the moment I think most people are comfortable saying, "better than what they are". It also stands out in my mind that…

If the current representation is X% and you want it to be "better" than what they are then you're just implicitly setting a quota of (X+1)%.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#749

Post by NetOpWibby »

John23832 wrote: post #90

(Black man here) Two things can be true at once. I have built great things. I can stand on my own. My merits are great. I do not want to be the token employee that is trotted around for Diversity Points (tm). I do not like the diversity porn that a lot of these DEI groups get off on. That being said, I do recognize that I have benefited from these groups (at least at their most genuine). There are groups that are aim…

(Also a Black man)

I’ve dealt with enough bullshit early in my career that I don’t trust DEI initiatives. I don’t join meetings but your comment makes me think I should at least try.

Re: Tell HN: DEI initiatives undermine the self esteem of PoC within a company

#750

Post by idlewords »

tptacek wrote: post #732
rayiner wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Wait, what is "neo-Marxism"? When he's not busy "waging moral war on Disney", Rufo is full of weird stuff like this --- "neo-Marxism" is a turn of phrase most famous for its use in Jordan Peterson's nonsensical coinage "postmodern neo-Marxism". Marxism is distinguished as an ideology by totalizing class consciousness. That's the opposite of wokeness, which ratifies identity politics. In fact, "wokeness" is a fault li…

I think the parallel to Marxism that is being made here is more about epistemology and the rules of debate than about economic systems.

In Marxist terms, when your opponent disagrees with you, you don't engage with their argument on its merits, but look for deeper structural factors that have led them into such serious ideological error, factors that render your opponent incapable of understanding the truth of your correct argument. In Marxism, these center around the person's class background, their internalized class interest, petty bourgeois thinking, etc. They may be conscious or unconscious, but in all cases they are the ultimate motive force behind the person's wrong beliefs.

In modern elite ideology (whatever name we give it), the role of class background is replaced by the cross-product of various -isms and forms of oppression that prevent the privileged from being able to admit deep truths that are obvious to the marginalized.

In both cases, it's a kind of nihilistic structuralism which asserts that the only meaningful way to evaluate an argument is by examining the identity, circumstances, and background of the person making it, as those factors relate to societal networks of power and oppression. In this form of debate, you counter what someone is saying by pointing out who they are, and whose interests they represent.

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