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EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

consilium.europa.eu

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Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#741

Post by peoplefromibiza »

mdp2021 wrote: post #169
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nothing says "already paid" as a credit card transaction. Maybe you prefer to keep paper receipts for tens of years and prove they are legit, I honestly don't.

What we «prefer» - sorry, radically "will" - is to live in dignity. This implies, no record of personal purchases around. The current "fight against cash" goes in direction of that risk.

> This implies, no record of personal purchases around.

What's stopping peoole to do it?

I regularly pay my drinks cash.

I never paid a beer more than 10k though...

> The current "fight against cash" goes in direction of that risk.

I'm glad that when I pay someone for something they can't say I didn't do it and ask for the money again.

That includes the State.

I paid my taxes, here's the proof.

I already paid my energy bill, here's the statement from the bank, have a good day.

Besides, what you are talking about has nothing to do with limits to cash transactions, I am honestly scared by the idea of going around with 10k in a bag to pay for something

only a fool or a criminal would actually do it and feel comfortable about it.

it's betting against bad luck and I an quite sure that I would not win.

Are you sure that you are going to the appointment with the seller with 12k in cash and they are not showing up with guns and rob you?

And what would you do then?

Go to the police? that first thing will do is ask you why you were going around with that much cash in a bag.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#742

Post by SergeAx »

amaccuish wrote: post #736
SergeAx wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, tell that to Russian war emigrants. Opening bank account in EU for non-residents is a hard endeavor right now. Those who did it before the hot part of war started in February often finding their accounts frozen and literally were unable to receive their paychecks.

But if they have emigrated, they are by definition resident?

There is significant (up to 9 months, from friends' experience) gap between fleeing to the country and getting legal residency (work permit, visa D, blue card). But even that doesn't make opening bank account much easier, there are banks that doesn't open accounts for holders of Russian passports (or even Russian names, believe me or not). Also, like I said, lots of EU banks froze or restricted accounts of Russian citizens in Feb 2022, even if those individuals were legally in EU for months or even years.

Bottom line: it's surprisingly easy to become unbanked in EU.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#743

Post by edzillion »

teo_zero wrote: post #730
CraigJPerry wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t need CBDC, just the existing system today. Here in the UK something like 3% of money is available as paper cash. The rest is just a row in a database. Assets are zero sum - if i sell you my car, i no longer have that asset. Money is not zero sum. It is created and destroyed as loans are made and repaid. Which kinda frazzles people’s minds when they hear it. I know it certainly did mine when i first learned.…

> Money is not zero sum. It is created and destroyed as loans are made and repaid. I don't think this is true. Every transaction, even the ones that take place in the rows of a bank's database and not with physical money, involve an amount added to some account and an identical amount subtracted from another account. Even loans don't create money: the issuing bank have the amount subtracted from its reserves the exac…

What you are stating was perhaps the previous orthodoxy, but in the last few years even major institutions[1] have come to agree that banks do indeed create money when they create certain kinds of loans; the upshot of which is that 90%+ of money in circulation in western countries has been created through mortgage issuance.

[1] The Bank of England: Money creation in the modern economy https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/quarterly-bulletin/2014/q1/m...

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#744

Post by SergeAx »

amaccuish wrote: post #736
SergeAx wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, tell that to Russian war emigrants. Opening bank account in EU for non-residents is a hard endeavor right now. Those who did it before the hot part of war started in February often finding their accounts frozen and literally were unable to receive their paychecks.

But if they have emigrated, they are by definition resident?

And being unbanked means, for example, inability to buy property, which is, in turn, may be a condition of getting residency in the first place. Not everyone possess IT skills to get work visa.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#745

Post by peoplefromibiza »

ilyt wrote: post #204
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Name one practical reason to pay amounts higher than 1.000€ in cash." it's 10.000 euros, you're off by an order of magnitude. Can you name one practical reason to pay more than 10k cash?

Car, house, selling/buying land etc. Mostly coz many banks take % cut on big money tranfers so taking it out and just giving it to someone in a bag is sometimes tens of thousands cheaper

> Car, house, selling/buying land etc.

so you would buy a house in cash?

How much will the personal protection cost?

I don't think I would accept to sell my house to soneone who pretends to pay cash, I wouldn't want to deal with that much money and all the risks involved, including the fact that there's no guarantees that the money is actually not fake.

Besides, money transfer is so cheap that it hasn't been an issue since at least 30 years ago.

We are taking about Europe here.

If you knew someone who buys houses in cash, can you swear your first question would not be "where did that much money in cash comes from?"

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#746

Post by nibbleshifter »

pelorat wrote: post #250

This will affect maybe 0.001% of the population. No one drops a stack of 10K euro when they buy something, it just doesn't happen.

Cash payments are surprisingly common for farmers, people who deal in used cars/motorcycles, etc etc.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#747

Post by nibbleshifter »

Symbiote wrote: post #369
flandish wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re kidding, right? Average people buy cars with cash: a teen saving from first jobs for a first used car… eventually, “10k” will be where “teen” used cars land … and boom, average person. A person with a down payment on a house. …I can go on. The point is this: casting this wide a net in the name of “fighting terrorists” is absolute nonsense, and not worth what would happen to a terrorist in this net: a few extra…

Average Europeans use bank transfers or debit cards to make these payments.

Have you met Germans?

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#748

Post by peoplefromibiza »

pfortuny wrote: post #181
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain is in the EU, but Spain is not the EU. So he is. But then again, what's the practical reason to pay more than 1k cash?

I do not want the government or the bank to know that I am buying a motorbike, a car, a washing machine or ten dozen frying pans. Just that. If the bank knows, the government does.

The government knows that you own a motorbike, you can't go around with an unregistered vehicle, you have to sign documents that prove the transfer of ownership, you also have to pay insurance on it, it's mandatory where I live in Europe.

It makes sense: if I buy a motorbike from you using cash and nobody knows about it, when I am going to rob a bank with it, the police would come knocking at your door. Would you like that just to let me use cash instead of any other system available because we are normal people that live in societies not in a lawless imaginary city in a western movie (west was not lawless, properties where already registered 4 thousands years ago by Egyptians, it's nothing new)

Simpler yet, if the police stops you and there isn't your name on the certificate of ownership , you have to justify why is that.

Again, it makes complete sense. It could have been stolen and you could be the thief.

A washing machine costs 250 euros, you can pay it in cash.

The limit is 10k, it's 40 washing machines.

The washing machine comes with a warranty, warranty is valid only if you put your name on it.

Only a fool would renounce to 2 years warranty to pay cash and not let the government know that they do laundry, like literally everybody else, I'm quite sure the government doesn't care if you own a washing machine, but then again I live in Europe, probably the CIA does and it's a big deal there.

I really don't understand how people feel comfortable going around with thousands of euros in cash in their pockets to buy stuff that they could have comfortably and safely bought from their couch using a free and immediate bank transfer that guarantees both parties against fraud, and theft and that have no handling costs.

American paranoia about government will be the worst heritage of these last two decades.

But probably even worse is the idea that your freedom means I have to pay the price for it.

Wanna pay a house or a car in cash, without any record of the transaction?

Go buy it from a criminal, because I am not selling it to you. Nobody would. Unless they are being paid to accept all that cash in one transaction.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#749

Post by flandish »

tgv wrote: post #711
flandish wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am speaking *nothing* about compelling the use of cash between two parties. My only and consistent point that is that it is silly for a nation to put a ceiling amount on its currency (cash) trading hands in physical meatspace form. For the amount will stay while inflation will not and the cohort of people “bumping” into this limit will increase over time. It’s not about compelling cash. Move away from that. It’s ab…

it’s not silly, and it’s not (just) terrorism. Crime can only flourish with black money.

If stopping crime involves treating normal people (in my country they are called “innocent”) like criminals via a transaction limit that may change with a vehicle so important as cash… then the method is unjust. A nation has no right to, in the name of “fighting terrorists”, accidentally consider or treat an innocent person as a criminal.

Re: EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments

#750

Post by peoplefromibiza »

cypress66 wrote: post #173
peoplefromibiza wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain is in the EU, but Spain is not the EU. So he is. But then again, what's the practical reason to pay more than 1k cash?

Because the opposite (banks) means the government can freeze your funds, like they did in Canada to protesters.

The limit is for a single transaction, not for your entire life.

If they can freeze your money in the bank, they can also freeze the cash you keep stashed in your room.

paranoia is stupid.

I am all in favour for protester not living tracks, it doesn't involve money transactions over 10k in cash though. I don't see how the two things relate.

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