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Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

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Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#741
post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses want more profit. Consumers want to pay less. Workers want to earn more. Pretty much always. This doesn't always result in an optimal outcome. Market power, externalities, information asymmetry, etc. This is why we have regulations. Forcing the society and Uber to pay for drivers to be treated as employees seems like a very reasonable outcome. If they don't like it they can hire less drivers, but the ones…

What does it mean to be "treated like an employee"? I'd like regulation to give everyone healthcare. Are non-employees not worthy?

The biggest difference in the US is that "treated like an employee" also means being paid a minimum wage. As an employee in the United States, your employer is also responsible for paying a portion of your social security and medicare taxes, and for making sure taxes are properly withheld from your paycheck.

Even before the gig economy became a big deal, businesses like yoga studios would attempt to classify their skilled teachers as independent contractors so they could pay them well below minimum wage, but take away their ability to teach at the location if they taught somewhere else as well. Hair salons and yoga studios sometimes go so far as to charge their independent contractors rent, which would make sense if these people were truly renting the space and could freely take their clients elsewhere, but these businesses also frequently limit the contractors' ability to collect personal contact information.

When I volunteered to help people with their taxes, a large number of Uber/Lyft/DoorDash/etc. drivers were surprised to learn that not only did they have to pay large amounts of income tax that would usually be automatically deducted from their pay check, but they also had to pay double the social security and medicare taxes because they had to pay the employer and the employee portions. Companies that classify their workers as independent contractors in this way are taking advantage of the fact it can take people up to a year to realize that taxes and car maintenance will take what little income they have made.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd be interested to know how many creators YouTube "employs" or how many retail workers Ebay has and what their percentages are. This is where this whole thing confuses me: If Uber drivers are employees (and maybe they are?) then basically every major tech company has millions on employees they have been misclassifying. Paying them all minimum wage with benefits and taxes deducted etc will be a massive massive cha…

Whats the difference between youtube paying creators $x/1000 views and Uber paying drivers $X per km/minute of driving? Surely they're both contractors right? What distinction am I missing here?

YouTube is actually very different. As a YouTuber, you, by default, have no monetary transaction with YouTube. It is possible for you, however, to ask YouTube to place ads on your video, where they get a 30% cut of the ad revenue. Crucially however, you are allowed to place your own ads and monetize your videos any which way you like. So YouTube just acts as an ad agency, and as far as YouTube is concerned you are just a user of their ad service, or in the majority of cases just a user of their video sharing platform.

There is no contract between you and YouTube where you do work and in exchange you get money. There is only the option for YouTube to choose ads for your videos and give you a cut in exchange - it's quite literally just like placing ads on your website using AdSense. No guarantee of $ per video or even $ per view, it works almost exactly like AdSense.

Which is crucially different from Uber where the contract is that you do a task in exchange for some money, therefore meaning that you do the work for Uber. On YouTube, you're allowing YouTube to place ads on your IP for money, and you're allowed to do anything else with your work and monetize it however you like, so really YouTube is providing a service for you.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I vehemently disagree. I used to tutor for Chegg tutors on the side--outside my main job. They paid ~$20/hr and for 5-10 hours I week I could bring in some extra money for food and rent. They shut it down in my state because they reclassified them as employees, and Chegg was not going to do all that leg work to bring people on as part-time employees. I didn't need benefits like sick days or unpaid leave since it was…

> It's the bloody taxi companies trying to get back at Uber because taxi drivers ARE real jobs that require real benefits, and they can't compete with a better business model. Ah, yes, Big Taxi conspiracy. I can't imagine thinking a company losing billions while subsidizing chauffeurs for rich people while skirting laws is a "better business model". > Fuck California. Have you considered living in a place that doesn'…

I work for a billion dollar tech company. I make plenty of money to take care of myself, but I like a little padding for extra fun things and rainy days. I also find it fun to tutor.

I have plenty of money because I don't live if a shitty place like California.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am saddened to be reminded of the story in your link, as I read it at the time it was posted, and was also saddened then. I’m not convinced you have adequately eliminated other potential reasons he may have done the uncharacteristic thing he did. Even if he was in his right mind, I’m not convinced he had anyone’s interest at heart but his own personal one, as jobs are a form of social control. He desired to be free…

> I do see your point, though I disagree. I'm not clear what point you are referring to. It's possible for all sides in a story to be wrong in their actions.

I’m ending this conversation for violating HN guidelines about argumentative behavior. Flagged.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#745
post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Slavery doesn't come only through the form of physical subjugation from dictionary: slavery - the state of being a slave. slave - a person who is _the legal property of another_ and is forced to obey them. The fact that you use "slavery" as a synonim to hard work and/or high dependance, doesn't make "doesn't come only through the form of physical subjugation" true.

Ok, so [0]: slavery noun slav· ery | \ ˈslā-v(ə-)rē \ Definition of slavery 1a: the practice of slaveholding b: the state of a person who is a chattel of another 2: submission to a dominating influence 3: drudgery, toil Or [1]: slavery in British English (ˈsleɪvərɪ ) NOUN 1. the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his or her life, l…

I like how delusion you are to pick maybe 3rd or 4th entry to prove your point while 1st and 2nd prove you wrong in almost every dictionary you've posted here.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I vehemently disagree. I used to tutor for Chegg tutors on the side--outside my main job. They paid ~$20/hr and for 5-10 hours I week I could bring in some extra money for food and rent. They shut it down in my state because they reclassified them as employees, and Chegg was not going to do all that leg work to bring people on as part-time employees. I didn't need benefits like sick days or unpaid leave since it was…

If you care so much about the kids you were tutoring, why didn't you continue tutoring them yourself, without the rent-seeking middleman?

Chegg provided the kids (and rightfully took a cut for it).

What am I supposed to do? start cold calling college students asking if they need help? lol

Yeah, I could start my own tutoring business, but imagine the costs: I'd have to start a website, take payments, advertise, advertise, advertise.

It'd be great if someone did all that for me and I just could log in to tutor when I wanted.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I vehemently disagree. I used to tutor for Chegg tutors on the side--outside my main job. They paid ~$20/hr and for 5-10 hours I week I could bring in some extra money for food and rent. They shut it down in my state because they reclassified them as employees, and Chegg was not going to do all that leg work to bring people on as part-time employees. I didn't need benefits like sick days or unpaid leave since it was…

> It's the bloody taxi companies trying to get back at Uber because taxi drivers ARE real jobs that require real benefits, and they can't compete with a better business model. Ah, yes, Big Taxi conspiracy. I can't imagine thinking a company losing billions while subsidizing chauffeurs for rich people while skirting laws is a "better business model". > Fuck California. Have you considered living in a place that doesn'…

> Have you considered living in a place that doesn't require you to do "gig work" on top of your regular job in order eat? Isn't that the world we want?

I love this line because raising uber prices to meet the demands of Big Government will be cost prohibitive for most people. That means, a) uber drives get less than before, and b) fewer people will take uber, and c) the people that do will have to pay more for it.

So... you've just increased the cost of living for everyone, making it harder to live on a regular job.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid you're repeating Uber's favorite talking point, which is that everyone should respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor. Nobody disputes that Uber can have employees or contractors (or both), or that drivers should, in principle, be able to choose what status they hold. The problem is that Uber currently exerts so much control over its "independent contractor" relationships that they ha…

This comment is just wrong on so many levels: "I'm afraid you're repeating Uber's favorite talking point, which is that everyone should respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor." I've never seen Uber argue that everyone should "respect the worker's decision to be an employee or contractor." I have seen them argue that drivers are contractors based on the flexibility in the job, but not that it sh…

https://twitter.com/tbreisacher/status/1293010691176017921?s...

Here is an example of Postmates doing it, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Uber doing the same.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#749
post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean to be "treated like an employee"? I'd like regulation to give everyone healthcare. Are non-employees not worthy?

The biggest difference in the US is that "treated like an employee" also means being paid a minimum wage. As an employee in the United States, your employer is also responsible for paying a portion of your social security and medicare taxes, and for making sure taxes are properly withheld from your paycheck. Even before the gig economy became a big deal, businesses like yoga studios would attempt to classify their sk…

> Companies that classify their workers as independent contractors in this way are taking advantage of the fact it can take people up to a year to realize that taxes and car maintenance will take what little income they have made.

When I drove pizza delivery, I discovered car maintenance took what little income I made. I was a W2 employee, paid less than minimum wage, because I earned tips. Independent contractor status isn't the only method for surprising people.

I take issue with the paternalistic idea that an employee is more deserving than other types of people. The commenter above said, "This is why we have regulations." I interpreted that as beginning a discussion of what regulations we should have. If that was incorrect, I'm sorry for causing confusion. If that was the intent, then I'll reassert that focusing myopically on the distinction between an employee and a contractor is ignoring much better solutions.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Lyft/Uber can upgrade them to employees but the arithmetic of bottom-up economics means Uber has to raise prices to cover full employment benefits. The raised fares conflict with what passengers are willing to pay Then the business is not profitable enough to exist. Simple as that.

You know the entire purpose of the company that runs this site is to fund businesses that aren’t profitable enough to exist? Only two companies that YC has funded have gone public.

Where is the site guideline which states that I must fellate VCs?
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