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US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

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Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#741
post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

Are folks unaware of the history of westerners and trade in China, and how this kind of attitude could be interpreted by Chinese people not ignorant of their country's history?

In the late 19th century Great Britain fought two Opium Wars to force China to open up its markets to British opium. The British were forcing Indian farmers to grow opium and then taking it to sell to China. They wanted access to Chinese silver, but China had little reason to give it to them. So Britain's answer was to get Chinese people addicted to opium and get the silver through trade of opium for silver.

The Qing dynasty, for obvious reasons, didn't like this idea and forbid the British from importing their opium. So the British fought two wars to force them to accept their imports.

The Economist magazine was established in the mid 19th century as a pro-slavery, pro-imperialist magazine. Their arguments during the lead up to both opium wars sound a lot like yours. I want to make people aware of this, because it's important we understand how that kind of argument sounds to many Chinese people less ignorant of Chinese history than most westerners.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#742
post #605
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. The Chinese government sets their (extremely authoritarian) rules on censorship for companies to legally operate in China but the rules apply to everyone equally. Chinese companies of course have to comply, but foreign companies have the choice to comply or not. Google chose to comply initially but decided to pull out later on. Microsoft/Apple choose to comply and are still operating in significant ways…

>. In other words, Chinese companies are "born a crime" to the US in the current climate, without the need to show what rules are violated or evidence of wrongdoing. The problem isn't that their Chinese. It's that they have implicit and explicit support from the Chinese government that give them a leg up on non-Chinese companies.

The statement "they have implicit and explicit support from the Chinese government" is really indistinguishable from "the problem is they are Chinese".

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#743
post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

There is no political or economic will to embargo Chinese made goods. It didn't get this way overnight, it wouldn't be possible to end it overnight. It would translate into wholesale asset destruction of many businesses who depend on supply chains that would take years to recreate. It would make hundreds of millions of poor even more poor: here and in China. It would take away cheaper versions that make people feel just a little bit more in touch with people who can afford every day things. It would be an economic nuclear bomb just to prove a point.

And for ~40 years the U.S. at least has considered attacks on its economy as a national security threat - it is extremely likely an embargo leads to an actual war. Making everyone worse off in the short term is a fast track to violence.

Besides, the vast majority of consumers have voted with their wallet.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#744
post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should outright ban any goods or technology that originates in China If we were to start that ban many of Walmart's non-grocery (and some groceries) shelves would be empty for considerable time. I'm unsure there even are alternatives that can meet US demand for everything China provides.

> If we were to start that ban many of Walmart's non-grocery (and some groceries) shelves would be empty for considerable time. I always point out the price difference for the two models of the Purism Librem 5 phone. One model is manufactured traditionally and costs $749. The other model is manufactured in the USA and costs $1999. Americans talk about bringing manufacturing back to the country, but I'm not sure anyon…

The problem isn't much about labor costs in the US, but the dismantling of the supply chain. Even Apple had problems sourcing screws when building a handful of its computers in the USA, which is well documented. To re-build a domestic supply-chain, one has to start somewhere. China started by exporting 'low-tech' products (plastic utensils, some toys) and it inexorably moved up the chain while USA and Europe eventually divested of much of their manufacturing infrastructure.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But having the president order arbitrary punishment without proof of guilt (what happened to presumption of innocence?) looks like a dictatorship to me Extremely naive view. China is a totalitarian state that can compel its companies to hand over all private data if asked. In your rosy "presumption of innocence" scenario, by the time they're proven guilty it's too late. This is preemptive measure that is a prelude…

Funny, both the USA [1] and Australia [2] can compel its companies to hand over all private data if asked and regularly exploit the security systems of their own companies with little to no due process to obtain data on people. Nation-states interests are disjoint from those of its people. We need global unity, not petty tribalism if we are to make the world a better place for all. The internet can be a powerful tool…

Well said. I think we also need to limit how much data corporations (especially advertiser cartels) are permitted to collect on individuals.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#746
post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should outright ban any goods or technology that originates in China If we were to start that ban many of Walmart's non-grocery (and some groceries) shelves would be empty for considerable time. I'm unsure there even are alternatives that can meet US demand for everything China provides.

Because the US can't provide consumer goods or because the US can't provide consumer goods at below cost to manufacture and distribute?

Often times it's raw ability to produce the product. We cannot suddenly produce the iPhone in the US. Other times the products produced are just too expensive. Go to your local Honda Powersports dealership and price a motorcycle then go to your local Harley-Davidson dealership and price a similar motorcycle. Even a made in Japan motorcycle, with Japan's most premium motorcycle brand, will be much cheaper than the made in America variety. Made in China is significantly cheaper compared to made in Japan. Finally it's also the raw quantity of products we important from China. $539.5B worth of goods imported in 2018. Producing this much would put a strain on our infrastructure, on our labor force, and on our ability to manage cultural shifts.

https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/china-mongolia-taiwan/peo...

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It ceases to be reciprocal if you distinguish groups at an only slightly higher resolution: Chinese businesses like TikTok and WeChat and American businesses like Google and Facebook in addition to the Chinese and American governments. This is pretty much exactly how reciprocity works in other areas like travel and immigration. We treat their nationals as they treat ours. You can see examples worldwide right now wi…

> This is pretty much exactly how reciprocity works in other areas like travel and immigration. We treat their nationals as they treat ours. What? Which part of our immigration system is reciprocal?

10 year visitor visas for Americans were introduced in China after American granted 10 year visitor visas to Chinese. They also keep the fees similar.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#748
post #739
post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They haven’t directly done that, but what they have done is force American companies to form joint ventures with a Chinese company in order to operate in China. This requires the American company to hand over intellectual property and trade secrets. And then, amazingly, some state funded competitor comes along doing the same thing the American company wants to do. Would a Chinese company have this same problem enteri…

You need evidence to support your claim that they are 'required' to hand over intellectual property. Joint ventures are formed based on terms and contracts, signing such contracts is a very silly move. Also, the use of 'hand over' suggests they are all the way not willing to disclose the intellectual property but were forced to, but isn't there a patent system in China? Why would these companies refuse to disclose so…

https://www.wsj.com/articles/forced-tech-transfers-are-on-th...

This isn't a new thing. It's been going on for decades. Huawei is a stolen corporation that would not exist if not for theft of technology, intellectual property, and trade secrets. It would further not exist if the Chinese market were as open as the American market and Huawei was forced to compete on a level playing field domestically.

Re: US to ban transactions with ByteDance and WeChat in 45 days

#749
post #693
post #682

The entire western world should treat China exactly the same way China treats them. Western companies have a difficult time operating in China, but Chinese companies have zero problems operating in western countries. It’s completely unfair and if we follow this to conclusion, the future will be one of only Chinese international corporations. Would WeChat or TikTok even exist if the Chinese market were open to existin…

China has not forcefully seized foreign company's promising assets so good so it's impossible to consider for sale, by both a measly 'offer' of maybe 1/10, or less, of the market value and threatening from the leader, has it?

They sure do. They also have restrictive laws that require foreign companies to sell majority stakes to government controlled companies... or at least partner with locals that have significant stakes in your company.

Even if you comply with all these regulations, you can still get booted out of the country and have all your assets and IP seized and redistributed, at the whim of their farcical of a judicial system.

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