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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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741–750 of 859 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#741
Tech may not be entirely innocent, but at the end of the day it facilitates both the good and the bad behavior equally well, so users do bear the most of the blame. Helping the users such that they would not behave in such a manner would, of course, be a complex matter mostly outside the realm of technology-based tools, but I do not believe that is any reason to abandon the cause.

One thing we could do, which would not solve the problem but perhaps illuminate a better way forward, would be to work on communications technology. Not simply technology for data transfer, but for actual information and understanding transfer. Technologies and systems which facilitate the good behavior without facilitating the bad nearly as well. By that I mean things such as systems which enable presenting large volumes of nuanced information in ways accessible to more people, and systems which enable both constructing, sharing, and refining complex arguments.

As an increasingly large portion of humanity conducts themselves online, we must keep in mind that there is much of human behavior which is not admirable. The solutions to that behavior are not technological except in the most dystopian and (philosophically to me at least) disgusting scenarios. There has never been, nor ever will be, a happy, prosperous police state. Autonomy and free expression are not luxuries, they are necessary for human health. We must also always be vigilant that the systems we implement are flexible and permit society to change both within and through them. Take a thought experiment I came up with for example. Imagine that tomorrow morning 90% of the population of planet earth awoke to a realization that agitation over nudity was ludicrous. Would it be possible for our existing systems to accommodate this change, or would it actively thwart every single attempt by any individuals to live their life according to this newly adopted principle? Would it result in a global relaxation of pointless anxieties, or would it result in increased anxiety as people felt themselves isolated in their realization, 'judged' by their technology which would filter them, block them, and reject them at every stage?

At no point in history has any society, so far as we know, hit upon "The Correct Ideas" which represent unvarnished truth, eternal and unchanging. And we should be careful to consider that our current social ideas are not unwittingly treated as such, ossifying human culture.

In Eric Schmidt's book "The New Digital Age" he speaks about wishing to play a very active role in exactly this kind of cultural ossification, expressing an extremely elitist view that due to the fact Google is rich, they are Better and should therefore take steps to actively guide and mold society in the ways which Eric Schmidt believes are best. Those just so happen to be the social values of the late 1990s when Google was introduced and which facilitated their wealth-building. That is, to my mind, a dangerous game. Past history would suggest that attempts at "social engineering" which do not rely completely upon broad social consensus and upon society reaching its own conclusions and doing its own enforcement of its own ideals tends to backfire in spectacularly catastrophic and inevitably violent ways.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#742

Polarisation and 'toxicity' are two completely different things. The fact that people have increasingly divergent views (or rather, are voicing them, they probably always held those views) is just a fact of life. It's not unique to any online community or even any country. It might be simply the fact that too much diversity is inherently destined to collapse. 'Toxicity' is a made-up new meaning for the word, which me…

>'Toxicity' [...] means anything undesirable from the point of view of the speaker.

I think it's more often the delivery than the message that gets something labeled as "toxic". Merriam Webster describes toxic (when used in this context) as "extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful"

People are generally open to new ideas as long as they're presented in a friendly and factual manner.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#743

You don't. Instead you teach to identify trolls / toxic commenters and ignore them. Just like bullies, they're a fact of life, and the key to dealing with them is to not take them seriously. A bully's goal is to get a reaction out of you so to win - don't react. Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me - this applies online and offline.

A bully's goal is to get a reaction out of you so to win - don't react.

That doesn't work. Bullies target weak people who they perceive as being socially isolated and less likely to retaliate. If they don't get the reaction they want, it's not unusual for verbal bullying to escalate to physical violence. There's abundant academic literature on this topic.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the average left-leaning person today doesn't see bigots even as people any more. I spend the bulk of my time studying extremist discourse and communities. Extremist bigots take it as read that people of the wrong ethnic/religious/political group are either not people or at best inferior people, and direct their efforts to promoting those views, planning how to eliminate those they dislike, and normalizing that b…

>I spend the bulk of my time studying extremist discourse and communities Do you also study how to reform extremists? Or are you just studying how to identify and silence them? >planning how to eliminate those they dislike, and normalizing that behavior This sounds like de-platforming to me. >That's a tactic known as 'entryism' What you are doing here is called "vilifying." Where you identify that someone is disagree…

> What you are doing here is called "vilifying."

Do you think that it's not appropriate to vilify people who advocate or support genocide?

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#745

I am basing this on nothing but my own opinion. This has been going on for a while. Sometime around 2010-2012 many news sites started removing their comment sections. While most people thought many of these comment sections were "cancer", it was a still way to comment on, add context to, or dispute something posted to a news site. The claim was that "trolls" were causing too many problems. This was around the same ti…

many news sites started removing their comment sections

It's very rare to see a news website that doesn't have a comment section. That claim needs some substantiation.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#746
post #274

Discussions like this are frustrating to me because they always seem to skip over what feels like a crucial element: Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? I get the feeling, in general, when people talk about wanting to "Do Something" about this sort of thing, they are always focused on managing the symptom and never focused on addressing the cause. Frequently, when I try to bring this up, the caus…

I think it is a confluence of factors, but primarily it has become much more visible due to the rise of social media. And by that I specifically mean that social media enabled far more people to actively contribute and communicate online to wider audiences than previously. Most of the people communicating undesirable ideas have not formed them recently. They have held them and repeated them very often, they simply haven't been accessible to others, searchable, indexable, etc. All of the various notions about requiring platforms to regulate speech online and similar will, at most, return us to that situation. That would not necessarily be a positive step. As an example, two sisters from the Westboro Baptist Church have left the organization expressly as the result of one of the sisters having her mostly deeply held beliefs questioned, challenged, and refuted on Twitter. Were that communication not able to flow, that group would still have two more members protesting funerals, spewing irrational hatred, and promoting a harmful ideology.

Human beings have a natural tendency to wish to categorize things in a binary manner, and they deal exceptionally poorly with situations that feature an abundance of both good and bad. They feel compelled, really compelled, to decide to pay attention to only one of the two possibilities and to minimize the other so that the opinion of the matter can be held onto more tightly. I personally think this is a tendency of deep biological origin (down to the actual functioning of the brain level) and it is something we must guard ourselves from buying into.

Another large factor is simply number and breadth of people communicating online. Children, adolescents, and young adults are very active online now. They are learning social skills and as our society totally and utterly abandons them in this regard outside of the Internet, it is the only location in the world where they can even have the possibility of interacting with other people as equals. Beyond the bounds of the Internet, they are treated and spoken of very poorly by all segments of society, and they bring their bitterness over that with them online. Human society has problems, and our desire to hide those problems should be resisted in preference to wishing to see those problems solved. Talking about it, and attempting to find successful means of solving those problems without compulsion but with education should be an actively pursued goal, IMO.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#747

I really doubt that people have overall become more contentious and disrespectful. It's just that, with social media and the Internet generally, it's so much more visible. People ranting about this and that were always there, but you had to go out of your way to hear them. Back in the day, many Usenet groups were OK during summer, when only professionals were online, and suddenly became toxic in the fall, as students…

I agree. There used to be many bars/restaurants/clubs, and you wouldn't naturally bump into the clubs you disagree with. There even used to be a ton of phpBBs/vBulletins out there. Even different subreddits/imageboards mostly keep to themselves (sometimes a bit too much..), raids notwithstanding.

But there's only one Facebook. I guess the network effects give monopolies such strong advantage, we tend to end up with maybe 1 or 2 of each kind of social network (Reddit is the exception, with N subreddits). It forces All Kinds together. If there were real competition, we wouldn't be so often confusing deplatforming with denying speech (IMO; the line gets blurry).

I think HN has mostly dodged this issue for the most part through persistent moderation, niche userbase, & people usually assuming good faith.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Extremists who espouse intolerance count on the tolerance of the opposing groups to get themselves accepted and their extremist viewpoints normalized. When they do get deplatformed, marginalized and discredited, they complain about it, which itself serves to recruit people, especially those who are unfamiliar with such tactics and mistakenly think that their side is being unfair.

My problem with this "intolerance-is-okay-against-the-intolerant" thing is I'm lumped in with some extremist politics because of my religion. I don't feel at all treated as an individual (or even treated fairly) by either the left or the right. Some people who identify as the same religion have been homophobic. Since I was of voting age, I have never been against legalizing gay marriage, or treating homosexuals diffe…

You say that "some people who identify as the same religion [as me] have been homophobic" but I wonder if that's not minimizing the truth. If you're part of an opt-in demographic that's known for negative characteristic X, even if you yourself don't exhibit that characteristic, you're going to receive some transitive association -- and it's at least somewhat warranted because your participation is voluntary.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#749
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I know one thing that isn't the solution: silencing everyone who disagrees with you this assumes that the people on the internet are arguing in good faith. they aren't in a lot of cases. the problem i have is willful ignorance and the associated culture that promotes the people that spread lies.

I don't think this is that important because there are far more people reading than posting. Even if the person you're responding to isn't arguing in good faith, there are people reading the discussion with an inquisitive mind. or, see this comic: https://imgur.com/T8egYQl

What makes you think the people reading are reading in good faith?

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? I think it's because online, each of us is disembodied and anonymous. We're a nobody. And nobody wants that. So the quickest way to become somebody is to join a group -- ideally a group that seems to be a winner, that offers easy compelling answers to hard problems... especially answers that somehow favor you and others like you. That's populism. Populists ar…

Why is Trump in this comment? You talk about dividing the country yet your comment does exactly that. Further I think you’re wrong in your claims that nobody wants to be anonymous. Some of us are punished for our points of view and very much want to remain anonymous, using it as a place to vent frustrations with no repercussions. I would go as far as to say that your comment is a prime example of toxicity on the web…

I mean, pro- or anti-Trump, you have to admit that he's at least symptomatic of divisive politics, right? It's probably fair to go one step further and say that he also embraces that divisiveness.

That's without expressing an opinion on the underlying politics.

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