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US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

theguardian.com

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Re: US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

#731

Post by actionfromafar »

maxglute wrote: post #678
holografix wrote: post #554

This is basically a win for Iran. 1. They replaced the decrepit Khameini with a much younger and more formidable Khameini. 2. “Pulled a Ukraine” vs the US showing defiance and have now rallied any wavering regime supporters against the American and Jewish “devils”. 3. Reminded the anti regime population that they’re not going anywhere and that the US can’t help them. 4. Showed everyone in the ME and the world that if…

More loss for US, as in customary US not winning fast is functionally the same as losing. Heavy weight boxing a teen it should have brained in round 1. Teen lands a few punches back is embarrassing. Teen slapping heavy weights protectorates more embarrassing. Teen surviving week 4 is like heavy weight failing to brain teen by round 7. At this point it's looking like we're going to round 10 TKO, whoever "wins", US los…

To China, the conflict is a clear demonstration of the impotency of the US war machine. Before this "military operation", one could imagine the US defending Taiwan.

Now, it's a laughable thought. It couldn't even if it wanted to.

Re: US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

#732

Post by hackable_sand »

tristanj wrote: post #625
karim79 wrote: post #614

This is Israel's "business as usual" stuff. Mowing the lawn, fake ceasefire, distraction, expansion and greater Israel project let's go! stuff. Stretch goal is to make Iran a failed state. Primary goal is distraction from the very real annexation of Palestinian and Lebanese territories, one war crime at a time.

[flagged]

Your arguments directly conflict

Re: US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

#733

Post by Galanwe »

Ms-J wrote: post #642
b345 wrote: post #637

[flagged]

Any American's I've spoke to either are so sick of wars and of course don't want this or they actively oppose it. The only people you find wanting this war is israelis and their kind. They sit back and relax while having their blackmail controlled, ancient, American politicians do all of the dirty work while sending their sons and daughters to die for isreal.

Sorry but I just dont buy this argument.

All Americans I have met had the same discourse: "I am ashamed, it's a pity Trump is in power, it's hard for us too, we don't support him", etc. I am rather sick of it.

A democracy is not an "us versus them" system, it's a closed loop. One cannot hide behind "these imbeciles votted for him and I am held hostage by their ignorance". Pros and antis Trump are equally responsible for his election.

Maybe if the US was not such an individualistic country, with growing educational and wealth inequality, half the population wouldn't have voted for exploding the status quo.

Politicians are no more corrupt than the population not impeaching them.

The US is basically in a streak of blatantly stealing resources of other countries, mafia style, and we are long past the point where the population can argue "we didnt know, we thought they had weapons of mass destruction, I am so against it".

Re: US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

#734

Post by direwolf20 »

megamike wrote: post #31

Iran's 10-point plan includes: 1. Guarantee that Iran will not be attacked again 2. Permanent end to the war, not just a ceasefire 3. End to Israeli strikes in Lebanon 4. Lifting of all US sanctions on Iran 5. End to all regional fighting against Iranian allies 6. In return, Iran would open the Strait of Hormuz 7. Iran would impose a Hormuz fee of $2 million per ship 8. Iran would split these fees with Oman 9. Iran t…

So basically complete American surrender. And America accepted this deal.

Re: US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

#735

Post by bambax »

bestouff wrote: post #620
Yoric wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still looking at the details, but this morning, one of the biggest French newspapers was basically headlining (a slightly more polite version of) TACO. Not a good image for the US around the world, including its (former?) allies, I guess.

What's à good image of the US nowadays ? Artemis maybe. That's all.

Wait for re-entry.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47582043

Re: US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

#736

Post by thejohnconway »

refurb wrote: post #683
holografix wrote: post #554

This is basically a win for Iran. 1. They replaced the decrepit Khameini with a much younger and more formidable Khameini. 2. “Pulled a Ukraine” vs the US showing defiance and have now rallied any wavering regime supporters against the American and Jewish “devils”. 3. Reminded the anti regime population that they’re not going anywhere and that the US can’t help them. 4. Showed everyone in the ME and the world that if…

This is in no way a win for Iran. Hundreds of regime leadership is gone. Massive destruction of infrastructure. Bombed all their neighbors who weren’t even at war with them. Pushed those same neighbors into closer partnership with Israel and the US. Now the regime is severely weakened.

None of those things matter if they survive and control the straight, which seems to be the situation. The toll revenue will be enough to rebuild several times over. They have proven that they can absolutely crush the gulf states with missiles and drones.

I think the fact that Trump accepted their 10-point plan as the basis for negotiation, instead of them accepting the American 15-point plan, makes it obvious this is America taking the loss.

Re: US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

#737

Post by baq »

smallmancontrov wrote: post #320
Aloisius wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran's semi-official Mehr News Agency (via China's state news agency Xinhua[0]) claims the 10 points are: 1. U.S. commitment to ensure no further acts of aggression 2. Continued Iranian control of the Strait of Hormuz 3. Acceptance of Iran's nuclear enrichment rights 4. Lifting of all primary sanctions 5. Lifting of all secondary sanctions 6. Termination of all United Nations Security Council resolutions against Iran…

The Ayatollah Booth is egg on the US's face regardless, but $2M/ship is about $1/barrel for perspective. Spot price is $95/barrel right now.

$2M/ship is $100B/year at pre-war crossing rates.

Re: US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

#738

Post by nslsm »

Unicironic wrote: post #283

It's disheartening to hear people talk about this in terms of won and lost. Is that how you think of these events? I think of them in terms of sadness and horror. The US threatened to obliterate a country and people, because gas was getting a little expensive. If winning and losing is the way you are framing this, instead of thinking about the humans that these actions affect, then we all have lost.

> The US threatened to obliterate a country and people, because gas was getting a little expensive.

That’s not the reason. The US is an occupied government.

Re: US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

#739

Post by cm2187 »

karim79 wrote: post #645
tristanj wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Israel hates negotiations. Netanyahu funded Hamas. And you're writing comedy and I just can't be bothered. You got me. No you didn't. Only a Zionist would call equal rights and the right to self-determination a "maximalist" position. Answer me one thing. Who will be the people who flow into Israel while the whole world sees the ugly state it has become? A weirdly supremacist ethno-state is not a solution. It might se…

> "Netanyahu funded Hamas"

I see this claim repeated over and over. You should be aware that it is false. As far as I am aware, Israel never funded Hamas. Israel allowed Qatari money to the Gaza authority to pay for civil servants, humanitarian aid and basic services, while it was run by Hamas.

Re: US and Iran agree to provisional ceasefire

#740

Post by ropable »

holografix wrote: post #554

This is basically a win for Iran. 1. They replaced the decrepit Khameini with a much younger and more formidable Khameini. 2. “Pulled a Ukraine” vs the US showing defiance and have now rallied any wavering regime supporters against the American and Jewish “devils”. 3. Reminded the anti regime population that they’re not going anywhere and that the US can’t help them. 4. Showed everyone in the ME and the world that if…

It's very hard for me to see this war (regardless of final outcome) as anything other than a massive strategic loss for the USA. The US has spent a stunning amount of materiel and political capital to achieve nothing of lasting benefit to themselves, and have killed thousands while further destabilising and impoverishing the region. A catastrophic outcome.

It's absolutely possible for both sides in a major conflict to lose, and they've managed to do so in this case.

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