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Honda is killing its EVs

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Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#731

Post by mikkupikku »

kakacik wrote: post #686
drnick1 wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally, there's the issue of privacy. Most manufacturers contract with analytics vendors to send your data back to them. You can't even turn it off. You absolutely can. Pull the fuse of the cellular modem aka "telematics unit" or even completely remove it. Some vehicles don't have a separate fuse, in which case you will need to physically unplug the modem. Do your research and don't buy any car where this can't be…

Well thats a nice theory but do you yourself give guarantee to all models that they will keep working after such potentially destructive 'hack' ? I don't think so. Its trivial for manufacturer to make it stop working because of ie some security blah and just having a big warning on the screen to go to the repair shop. So a typical internet advice - don't listen to it uncritically, or not at all.

Pull the fuse during your test drive maybe.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#733

Post by neya »

carefree-bob wrote: post #649
neya wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people including the author think more software = premium/better. But as software engineers, we know better. That's not the case at all. More software = more control by everyone else except you. Manufacturers. Governments. For this reason, I always avoid cars with big flashy LCD screens that are central to controlling the cars accessories like sunroof, AC and other electricals. The other issue is support. So man…

There is also the issue of longevity. Most people don't expect 20 year old laptops to keep working, but they expect 20 year old cars to keep working. The software defined vehicle is a disposable vehicle, and that means it better be cheap or someone is taking a depreciation bath.

That's because cars are fundamentally hardware products, not software products. Yes, software powers the heart of it (ECU), but it is just another "part" in a million other parts, not the main central selling point of the car.

So, if I buy an expensive hardware product for something that can significantly alter my net worth, it is not unreasonable to expect it to last a few decades.

The analogy for this would be the same as buying a property/house. Just because it has a smart home module in it, doesn't make it the central USP of the house - people invest millions into it for the location and size (area), not for the software it runs on.

However, what's happening today is software is being pushed as the central USP of the car, kind of like how they did with phones - and that's not a good thing and which enforces my belief further that we need less software inside hardware products, not more.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#734

Post by rickdeckard »

simondotau wrote: post #716
angry_octet wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid it's exactly the opposite -- Tesla has awful software, and no self discipline about adding more bloat. There is a lot of rigorously designed software in cars where you can't see it. Jeep is no one's idea of quality in any respect though. Legacy brands do significantly improve software as the model evolves, and provide firmware updates to earlier models. The best car is probably the last one before a new pl…

I know enough about the software in BMW (NBT/OS7) and Audi (MIB2/MIB3) instrument cluster stacks to know there's at least as much complexity — if not substantially more — in many of the legacy brands. Not to mention the exponential complexity which comes from their highly modularised approach, where systems from a variety of external suppliers have to co-ordinate with each other. By contrast, the Tesla software stack…

Isn't the role of the VW MIB2 (as in "Modular Infotainment Baukasten") explicitly the infotainment part of the vehicle (and NOT the instrument cluster, cruise-control, etc.)?

I never had an issue with those, as their reach is isolated (or "limited" as people would say today) to the infotainment part of the car. It couldn't even take control of the climate system back when I had one.

Can't argue much about MIB3, it is just a few years old and a child of the Tesla Software-defined-car era (albeit still tries to uphold Volkswagen's DNA of strictly separating roles of all components, partly making it the mess it is...)

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#735

Post by bko »

edgyquant wrote: post #725
bko wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that's because software that we use every day (websites, saas, etc) generally get better over time and it's still relatively cheap. Meanwhile cars still rely on things like an archaic check engine light rather than just tell you what's wrong with the car and an infotainment system that's worse than a circa 2012 iPad. People feel that cars haven't really improved much in practical terms over the last 20 years. A…

Cameras and auto start are both godsends and way better improvements than anything else including computerized features

Auto start is pretty much universally hated especially since it's ubiquitous and can usually only be turned off for a single ride. But cool, I'm glad you like it.

Cameras and electronics make the car much more expensive to repair.

But I'm confused, are you pro-technology in car or are you one of those that say "this exact level of technology is perfect, any more or less would be bad". I see this weird tech hater sentiment. For instance some are worried about technology taking blue collar jobs but if you suggest removing technology to create more jobs, they would be against that. Consider how many jobs the washing machine has taken. We could create millions of manual clothes washers if we got rid of them!

https://www.newsweek.com/automatic-start-stop-technology-new...

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#736

Post by mikkupikku »

stackghost wrote: post #347
cyanydeez wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's techcrunch. The angle of software-everything has to be there. Why honda is killing EVs is directly related to just how damn cheap Chinese EVs have become and how stupid Americans are when it comes to EV efficiency. Who the hell wants large vehicles for EV when the best solutions are small efficient vehicles with long drive times. Americans distort the market and margins, and Honda was never in the large SUV game…

Americans in most of their country are besieged by massive SUVs and pickups. Driving a tiny little Japanese/Chinese import in, say, Oklahoma is asking to get literally run over.

I've got a Mazda 3 and I don't worry about SUVs or trucks running over me. Drive sober and watch the road, don't use your phone. Do this and you reduce your risk of an accident by something absurd like 1000x.

The reason people love massive vehicles is because they're shitty drivers, they know they're shitty drivers, and they have no intention of changing. They want to text while driving and they want it to be the vehicle's responsibility to keep them alive when they go off the road or get run over by a train, or drift into the opposing lane. Keep your eyes peeled for these morons, keep your head on a swivel. If you're attentive you're already in the 90% percentile. Paying attention is better safety than even a seat belt.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#737

Post by trashb »

generic92034 wrote: post #675
carefree-bob wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The older modules were more durable, but even those start to fail after that much use. In the past, you could go to a junkyard and pull a new module, but now everything is vin-locked to the car, so you need to buy a new module from the manufacturer, but oops, they are no longer selling them. Now what do you do? It's a real problem. Some shops try to reverse engineer the modules and create clones, and that works a lit…

At least in places with strong consumer rights I imagine there could be regulation to force vendors keeping their old cars repairable.

This could be but in practice it doesn't work.

Both the governments and the manufacturer benefit from you driving a newer vehicle instead of keeping your old car running. Topics like environmental impact safety etc. are higher priority compared to repair-ability. Additionally most people don't care.

Additionally there is the issue of licensing and regulation around the hardware and software of a vehicle. The regulation in my country is written around "type approval" and this means you can not change the car significantly beyond what is approved during the car "type approval" process.

On top of that this market is ripe for abuse of planned obsolescence as the product is very technically complex and there is no real regulation against it.

This is why I drive an old car and a simple modern car, most modern smart tv's with wheels strapped to them will become bricked the moment the manufacturer doesn't support them anymore (after the 10year lifespan).

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#738

Post by jack_arleth »

simondotau wrote: post #716
angry_octet wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm afraid it's exactly the opposite -- Tesla has awful software, and no self discipline about adding more bloat. There is a lot of rigorously designed software in cars where you can't see it. Jeep is no one's idea of quality in any respect though. Legacy brands do significantly improve software as the model evolves, and provide firmware updates to earlier models. The best car is probably the last one before a new pl…

I know enough about the software in BMW (NBT/OS7) and Audi (MIB2/MIB3) instrument cluster stacks to know there's at least as much complexity — if not substantially more — in many of the legacy brands. Not to mention the exponential complexity which comes from their highly modularised approach, where systems from a variety of external suppliers have to co-ordinate with each other. By contrast, the Tesla software stack…

The quip is on point, correct and highly timely.

Volkswagen tried to evolve to a more "touch" based HMI -that everybody hated- and is now touting it's abandoning that HMI as the largest redeeming factor of it's cars.

China is banning the ridiculous "innovations" on car handles and further "innovations" on steering wheels.

The Tesla software stack has few advantages: it's cheap and can be easily revised when the Beta-user discovers issues with it. So I have to pause and think to who's benefit it's made the way it is.

From an HMI perspective a Tesla is a nightmare, getting in and out one is constant question as to -why- these design choices were made. Especially after taking out "just doing things different" as a reason. A friend's first additions was loops to the physical door-releases so that passengers could actually get out should something happen and incapacitate the infuriating button-based door releases.

Luckily there is progress such as the recent Ferrari HMI that actually thinks about how the HMI will be used. The central screen even offers a palm-rest for when manipulating the screen. Integrating physical buttons and switches with the canvas of a screen is the logical way forward.

The car industry is soul-searching as we speak on what to do with technology and our interaction with it. But one thing is absolutely certain: whatever Tesla did is not the future.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#739

Post by gambiting »

generic92034 wrote: post #675
carefree-bob wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The older modules were more durable, but even those start to fail after that much use. In the past, you could go to a junkyard and pull a new module, but now everything is vin-locked to the car, so you need to buy a new module from the manufacturer, but oops, they are no longer selling them. Now what do you do? It's a real problem. Some shops try to reverse engineer the modules and create clones, and that works a lit…

At least in places with strong consumer rights I imagine there could be regulation to force vendors keeping their old cars repairable.

>>I imagine there could be regulation to force vendors keeping their old cars repairable.

Yes, but what does that mean in practice? That Manufacturer has to keep making parts for 20 years after production ends? How does that help if your entire infotainment system runs on Google's AOSS system and google just pulls the plug on it or the built-in modem stops connecting to the internet because your country decided to switch off all 3G networks(which is a real problem happening everywhere). Is the car "working" but with all apps and satnav completely blank still functional or does it need "repair" - if so, what does that repair even look like?

As a basic example - I have a 2020 Volvo XC60 with Sensus OS - all the maps are preloaded on the internal drive and they will continue working until the hardware breaks - they might get outdated but they will work. But I drove a new Volvo XC60 with AOSS and I was in the area without any signal coverage - in that case all the maps were just blank, the middle of the driver display was blank, it literally looked broken because nothing would load and the screens didn't have a good fallback for such a scenario.....which will inevitably happen to all these cars, either because they lose connectivity or because google/volvo decide to stop supporting them on their network.

Re: Honda is killing its EVs

#740

Post by BiteCode_dev »

rkagerer wrote: post #308

Honda is setting itself up for failure on the second disruption sweeping the automotive industry: the software-defined vehicle (SDV), which has core capabilities that can be upgraded and improved over time. No thank you. Not sure why the author frames this as a good thing. They've been bamboozled by the automakers and have got it backwards - you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled,…

And bugs, and DRM, and mass surveillance, and giving the power to the state to abuse even more of the tech, and giving police super powers, and giving bad actors (terrorists, assassins) the abilities to kill you with a virus, and the general concentration of power that this implies.

This is a terrible idea, and that's why I have mixed feelings about the robo taxi. On one hand, it's a great resource-sharing tech. On the other hand, all of the above.

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