French workers protest plan to increase retirement age • Hacker News Board

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#731

Post by gruez » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:20 PM UTC

junofan wrote: post #627

gruez wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In contrast with stimulus checks, for example, which were given, because even if you earned no money at all you still got them. At the end of the day, there's no difference from a fiscal perspective between handing a company a $1M check and giving them a $1M tax deduction. While I agree that this is technically a distinction (ie. tax deductions require a tax liability to actually be used, as opposed to cash which ca…

I think you mean tax credit instead of tax deduction, and even then there is a substantial difference from a fiscal perspective.

>I think you mean tax credit instead of tax deduction

Tax deductions are equivalent to tax credits once you factor in the marginal tax rate.

>and even then there is a substantial difference from a fiscal perspective.

Specifically... how? Giving a company a $1M check has the same effect on the government's balance sheets as giving them a $1M tax credit, given the assumptions listed in my previous comment.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#732

Post by RugnirViking » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

OrvalWintermute wrote: post #578

ars wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You call them wars of choice. It would be more correct to call this preventative money. They spend this money in order to prevent having an actual war later. Also a lot of the aid is actually jobs program where the aid recipient is required to spend the money on American made goods. So it's not quite as simplistic as you're making it out to be.

> You call them wars of choice. It would be more correct to call this preventative money. No, we that served don't. > They spend this money in order to prevent having an actual war later. Having spent a good part of my life prepping for Fulda Gap defense against the USSR I know that is incorrect. The US has spread NATO right up to Russian doorstep, on the cusp of inside their early warning systems for missiles, havin…

You served in the american millitary during the cold war but don't think that the countries that were beind the iron curtain should have been allowed to join nato?

That's... interesting.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#733

Post by HaixuanTao » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:39 PM UTC

pixelfarmer wrote: post #706

HaixuanTao wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> left-leaning ideas of the younger generations about ecology and equality "extreme-left" Whatever the labelling you want to use, but we know for a fact that extreme ecology is going to destroy our country. We saw what happened with French nuclear, we are seeing it in the EU car industry, we are seeing it in French housing. We already know that radical ecology is going to bring social unrest. That the first to suffer…

> Macron is just trying to level the playing field and make France attractive. ... to whom? > After this reform, we will still be one of the most generous country in the world even for pension and social net even among Europe and even more worldwide. Not sure why I'm thinking about a frog being slowly boiled alive.

> ... to whom?

Tax apply to income generating people by design. You pay very little tax in France if you're poor (as a percentage of income). Macron reduced tax on what is comparable: corporate tax, flat tax on certain income such as dividend. Now, did he go overboard? I will let you judge: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/corporate-tax-rate with https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/social-security-ra...

France has been very generous during COVID, has been very generous during the Energy Crisis with the `bouclier tarifaire` that has helped most the poorest. We really have to put that in a world context where most does not get anything during time like this. Can we really say that France is boiling alive its people?

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#734

Post by ur-whale » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:48 PM UTC

rahen wrote: post #412

ur-whale wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vote with your feet (i.e: walk away from it all), it's the only option.

Yes, that's what I've done for about a decade now, and apparently more and more people do as well (abstention is record high). The thing is I distrust big corporations almost as much as I distrust big government, but at least, it's easier to move to a different company when one of them really sucks, provided there's a bit of competition. With governments, there's no such thing, you're stuck with them for 5 years, and…

> With governments, there's no such thing, you're stuck with them for 5 years

There are many other countries on Earth.

Many of them measurably better than France on very many dimensions.

Go give them your hard earned tax money instead of wasting it on a lost cause.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#735

Post by gymbeaux » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:49 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #349

gymbeaux wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But at the same time I don’t want to be forced into paying say $1M into social security and only live to see $200k come back to me

I thought the idea of Social Security was an insurance program to guard against you outliving your means if you live long enough, not an I-get-paid-back cash-out of your payments. Aren't you having a fundamental misunderstanding about what the purpose of SS is? And not sure if you know, but the dollar figures are more like: Max pay into the program: ~$300k over your 40 year working life (if you maxed out the contribu…

Yes that is the intention of SS.

I don't know if I agree with your example figures. SS was meant to be self-funding, and lately it hasn't been. This is partially because people are living longer.

Furthermore, the decline of pensions and rise of the 401(k) has enabled Americans to blow their opportunity to save for retirement, often on things like housing and college tuition (but that's another topic).

I think that either SS needs to be THE retirement plan, or it's the 401(k). As someone who maxes out their 401(k) each year, I do not want to participate into SS. I don't want it taken out of my paycheck, because that money would otherwise go into my 401(k) (technically), which I have more control over (where it's invested), which I can draw from in case of hardship, and which I can access at 55 1/2 instead of 65.

I do think SS is a good safety net to have, and I don't necessarily want to be disqualified from it because I "opted" for a 401(k), but realistically SS payments are so low relative to the cost of living that if I found myself living on it exclusively, I'd probably be only slightly more-comfortable than if I didn't have it. It's a shitty retirement either way. You're definitely not traveling or eating out or anything like that.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#736

Post by gymbeaux » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:53 PM UTC

gtop3 wrote: post #540

gymbeaux wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But at the same time I don’t want to be forced into paying say $1M into social security and only live to see $200k come back to me

In order to pay $1M into social security you would need to make the maximum contribution for 45 years. In order to pay $1M into social security and see less than $200k back you would need to die less than three years after starting to collect social security (assuming you don't retire early, which you probably didn't with a 45 year long career). This is an extreme example.

You can't collect SS until you are 65, 65 - 45 = 20, most people are employed by 20.

There are probably more people who pay more into SS than they get back, than you think, whether they make it to age 68 or not. Many Americans don't even make it to 65 because they had a heart attack at 58... So yes I would agree that the odds of you not making it to 68 but making it to 65, are low, but even at 68 you're still way way underwater vs what you paid in over your career.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#737

Post by candiodari » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:54 PM UTC

p4bl0 wrote: post #714

sneed-oil wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the cost of imported goods has gone up

It has, partly. But a part of the inflation at least in France/Europe is also due to big corp choosing to increase prices because they can (since "there is inflation"). For example Unilever has distributed very high dividends (€19B, for a total turnover of €80B, that's almost a quarter of their total revenue going directly towards to their shareholders while their workers and consumers see nothing), while the numerou…

Then France should not have allowed Unilever to merge so much, or at least guaranteed competition in France. If this works, they must have had either state support or a monopoly position.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#738

Post by candiodari » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

retinaros wrote: post #688

bloppe wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll admit that I don't understand French social security well at all, but based on what I've read online it seems like increasing salaries would actually reduce the amount of money going to social security because that would mean lower profits for employers (who contribute a higher percentage of their income). Obviously, in terms of wealth redistribution, it's better to have higher wages. But increasing them would a…

basically you pay a % of your salary to the pension fund. the higher the salary the more money you pour into. yes it will reduce profits for employers but even that is only short term. if salary rise you are more competitive on the global talent pool and you can do like america where a big chunk of today s giant were built by highly educated immigrants that came mostly because of the high salaries

With inflation at the level that it is, everyone will end up with minimum salary anyway, so what's the point?

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#739

Post by gymbeaux » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:56 PM UTC

KyeRussell wrote: post #354

gymbeaux wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But at the same time I don’t want to be forced into paying say $1M into social security and only live to see $200k come back to me

Assuming you’ve got the typical HN user’s job and career trajectory, this is exactly what’s going to happen. It’s what’s going to happen to me, too. It’s what SHOULD happen. I don’t think that many people are going to be shedding tears for your financial loss.

I'm not looking for tears, believe it or not. I would like to opt-out of SS (once I have paid in a certain amount - I realize it only works when EVERYONE pays in), and put that money in my IRA instead.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#740

Post by gymbeaux » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:59 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #358

gymbeaux wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But at the same time I don’t want to be forced into paying say $1M into social security and only live to see $200k come back to me

Everybody loves socialism until they get back less than they put in.

To assume I'm one of those types just from that tiny comment... Jeez it's math. Why do I have to pay way more into my retirement than I am going to get back? I don't mind my taxes going towards others' retirement, but why does the beating have to be so brutal and severe? Why can't I pay $200k in and then opt out of SS and start putting that SS tax into my IRA?