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Preliminary report into Air India crash released

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#721

Post by cjbprime »

1970-01-01 wrote: post #656
cjbprime wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no possible way to confuse these two actions. This is obviously an overstatement. Any two regularly performed actions can be confused. Sometimes (when tired or distracted) I've walked into my bathroom intending to shave, but mistakenly brushed my teeth and left. My toothbrush and razor are not similar in function or placement.

Technically an overstatement but not by much. Correctly restated, its highly unlikely these actions were confusing pilots. It's as if you mistook flushing your toilet twice when instead you wanted to turn on the lights in your bathroom.

I don't agree with the "twice". A frequently performed manipulation like the fuel cutoff (usually performed after landing) collapses down to a single intention that is carried out by muscle memory, not two consciously selected actions.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#722

Post by UltraSane »

yard2010 wrote: post #566
UltraSane wrote: post #414

Video would definitively show whether either pilot moved these switches or if some other mechanism caused the movement. The aviation industry has consistently resisted cockpit video recording despite decades of available technology. The pilot unions argue privacy concerns, but cases like this demonstrate the value it would have. Current audio captured the pilots' denials, but without visual confirmation we may never…

Please provide sources for your claims.

Which claim? It is self-evident that video footage would show if a pilot turned the engines off intentionally or accidentally.

The pilot's union opposes cockpit video recording for silly reasons.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2024-0...

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#723

Post by VBprogrammer »

nottorp wrote: post #619
VBprogrammer wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern would be that the investigation in this case is more likely to be biased towards a system failure. Disgracing a major flag carrier is something very few regulars have the independence and courage to get away with.

The way i read what avherald highlighted is that a part that the manufacturer said should be replaced wasn't and failed as the manufacturer said it will. So it would point to the airline maintenance right now. What the bbc says is truncated and omits the info about the failing part, so people can point towards murder suicide because they don't have all the info. Which is why you should always read avherald first...

The avherald is reporting second hand reports of the Indian media. The EEC MN4 microcontroller is located on a control board on each engine. A dual failure seems improbable.

The fuel cutoff switches are of a similar design to the 737 and most other Boeing aircraft. A failure in that design seems less likely than the most charitable explanation, that the copilot inadvertently went into the wrong mode of muscle memory.

The interim report does mention the SIAB NM-18-33. If you read that document it specifically says that the fuel cut-offs were installed with the locking feature deactivated on some 737 aircraft. It's a pretty big leap to that causing this incident. Someone or some thing would still need to have touched the switches to move them.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#724

Post by dyauspitr »

WalterBright wrote: post #391
dyauspitr wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it matter in this case since you would crash either ways. I’m talking about protection in a very specific situation where you make it harder to shut off both engines when you’re very close to the ground.

If the ground you are over is a good landing spot, your best chance is to cut off the fuel to that engine ASAP.

All I’m saying is in those situations it should involve another toggle or pedal that needs to be pushed to cut off the engines so it’s outside the realm of muscle memory.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#725

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

ionwake wrote: post #482
Aurornis wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve worked with some chronic liars. They would deny reality no matter how much evidence you had. The weirdest thing was how often it worked for them. In each case their lying eventually caught up with them, but in some cases they’d get away with lying for years. It’s amazing how often someone would have clear evidence against what they were saying, but the people in positions of authority just wanted to de-escalate…

i worked in many companies but I always remember one , where during a public chat in the middle of an open office the programmer next to me (who was always conniving but I just ignored it ), said incorrectly something akin to " yes I know all about that source control its... based on locking " , the whole point was that although locking technically occurs, the SC would allow different coders to work on it at the same…

Yeah, in the UK you lose your job when you make a fuss, not when you misbehave. That's my experience.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#726

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

WalterBright wrote: post #636
nosianu wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? The comparison still makes no sense. Those switches cannot be accidentally flipped, and they are in a place where the pilots' hands have no action to take at all during that period. That is very different from mixing up two similar weapons in a similar location. Location of the switches: https://media.cnn.com/api/v1/images/stellar/prod/c-gettyimag... Here is a video of a takeoff and climb in a 787: https://youtu.…

> Those switches cannot be accidentally flipped Yes, unbelievable things can happen. There are crashes where the pilot got discombobulated and a crash resulted. For another example, there are at least two crashes I recall (and I am sure there are many more) where the pilot pulled back to recover from a stall despite being trained endlessly to push forward to recover. (And they killed everyone on board.) Pilots get co…

Interesting. "Cacoethes" means "malignant" in Greek. I didn't know the other meaning in English.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#727

Post by narmiouh »

potamic wrote: post #471
nottorp wrote: post #408

Almost 400 comments and no avherald link for reference? https://avherald.com/h?article=528f27ec

> On Jul 12th 2025 (UTC) India's media report that the investigation is NOT focussing on a human action causing the fuel switches to appear in the CUTOFF position, but on a system failure. Service Bulletins by Boeing issued in year 2018 recommending to upgrade the fuel switches to locked versions to prevent inadvertent flip of the switches, as well as the FAA/GE issued Service Bulletin FAA-2021-0273-0013 Attachment 2…

The one thing automatic system failure theory can't explain is whether there is a reverse connect from the machine back to the switches where if the machine decides to cut off fuel, would the physical switches toggle to cut-off or stay in run position while the fuel is actually cut off, this would require an actuator setup to flip the switches from inside the system which there is no documentation of if that is even support let alone reported?

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#728

Post by mihaaly »

yason wrote: post #672

It is known that the switches cannot effectively be flipped by accident. It is known that the switches were set to "cut-off" because they were then later restored to "run", so it was not an electrical fault (i.e. switches pointing to run but reporting cut-off). Pilot dialogue and engine telemetry confirms the cause of power loss was fuel cut-off. The question I can't help but think is how did the pilot realize it was…

How can it be known that the switches were moved physically and not some electrical signal occured on its own (fault) equivalent of switches operated, without actual physical moement of the switch? Some electronic fault in the line of the signal. I do not expect having an independent sensor for this switch monitoring actual physical movements of the switch in parallel of the intended fuel controlling signals occurring, so the faulty signal reaching valves may have been registered and assumed that actual physical movement of the switch caused it?

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#729

Post by suyash »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #65
suyash wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a possibility that they got hacked and remotely toggled ?

Sadly not. It’s a physical switch with no capability of a remote toggle. The flight data recorder clearly shows one was toggled off within a second of the other, which rules out almost every non-intentional scenario.

Ok but you used 'sadly' incorrectly I presume.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#730

Post by ls-a »

ufmace wrote: post #611
yallpendantools wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this thread runs the gamut of armchair experts, pretend experts, and actual experts and there's no telling who is which but I really want to know why the downvotes and why this is not a good idea. The idea is to notify for crucial settings, replace vocal confirmation (probably) already in the SOP anyway, reducing mistakes in bad faith or otherwise. Don't some planes already have an automated announcement for s…

Pretty obviously a bad joke and a bad idea IMO. I did not personally downvote, but I think it deserves its current score. Look at the timeline of the events. The switches were shut off, noticed to be shut off, and restored to the proper position within 10 seconds with the current system. Insufficient notification that the switches have been turned off was clearly not a problem in need of a solution. It would be slowe…

It's a joke about the design of safety systems involving actual human lives (movies being more safe). I get an audible warning on my laptop if i hit a key for too long for God's sake. These companies are a joke.
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