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Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

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Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#721

Post by javajosh »

dealuromanet wrote: post #649
javajosh wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a nice thought. However in practice it will require a great transfer of wealth from AI providers to the public. E.g. if MS office copilot eliminates 10M jobs, and they make some fraction of those wages in revenue, only tax laws on MS will extract that as UBI revenue. It may also be that we discover how many truly BS jobs there are such that it was all a house of cards to begin with. Not sure what we do then.

This does imply some innovation is needed in how taxation happens. That is also something Sam Altman agreed with in his piece. This is an easy and simple problem to solve and all the leadership at that level has agreed on the spirit of the query as far as I've seen in their commentaries. I highly recommend it if you haven't read it yet, it's really good: https://moores.samaltman.com/ I think once tens of millions of…

I should have been clearer. BS jobs had to be created. They had to be created as a kind of UBI that can exist without challenging neoliberal economic orthodoxy. If that is the case, then increasing those worker's productivity is actually counter-productive! You've destroyed the value of redistribution-under-a-fig-leaf that those jobs represented.

And you've traded the current mostly working solution for the political difficulty of getting UBI done. People aren't rational, especially in today's radicalized political zeitgeist. I wish it weren't so. Heck, only 1 in 5 GOPers think climate change is real. UBI will be fought, perhaps with violence, as a form of socialism.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#722

Post by synetic »

noptd wrote: post #700
synetic wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the issue is spending. My main point is that school vouchers are bad. I did say that the method of school funding is idiotic. Smart kids dropped into a war zone may or may not do well. They might die for one thing. They might get so traumatized by the event that they are unable to cope in life. Change someone’s circumstances drastically enough then it won’t be possible to know what the outcome is.

>My main point is that school vouchers are bad. Which you keep repeating without providing any supporting argument or citations, hence the downvotes.

I’ve mentioned some of the bad effects vouchers would have. That would be a supporting argument in my mind. The bad consequences are easy enough to deduce though so that should not be necessary. This is not an academic forum. This is a place where people post their perspective and opinions. I have no desire to hunt down links. Interested people can do that for themselves.

It’s worth pointing out that people who support vouchers haven’t posted links to papers showing that vouchers are good. At least not in the thread started by rayiner. There have been papers posted on ancillary topics but not on the efficacy of vouchers. This isn’t a complaint on my part. I’m showing an asymmetry in the view that you posted above.

As for downvotes. I don’t care about internet points and never complain about downvotes or are otherwise affected by them. If you think what I’ve written is poorly stated or otherwise bad then downvote.

The person who said that smart kids dropped into a war zone would do just fine said something moronic and without attribution to its veracity. Why don’t you downvote them and ask for citations? Are you consistent in your view on this? I doubt it because if you were you’d be downvoting the overwhelming majority of comments on every thread on HN.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#723

Post by Shocka1 »

dumpsterdiver wrote: post #681
tootie wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> That's a load of fluff policy ideas that you have no possible reason to believe will be effective. Would you care to enlighten me why I have no possible reason to believe that my suggestions will be effective? Surely you know better than I.

I think the person you are responding to may have forgotten they are no longer posting in the Reddit tab. I've been on this site for a long time - unfortunately these vitriolic types have been bleeding over into this forum more than ever the last few years.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#724

Post by logicalmonster »

pwthornton wrote: post #299

This is the way. Teach kids more, not less. Ask more of them, not less. If you need to lengthen the school day and school year to do so, do it. Do it now. "So what should we do instead? Dallas came up with an answer: Teach kids more math instead of teaching them less. In 2019, Dallas Independent School District implemented a new equity policy that encouraged many more people to take honors math classes: Many capable…

> The move has dramatically increased participation among traditionally marginalized children

This program may or may not be a fantastic idea, but "participation" is about the worst possible metric for measuring the overall impact of a mandatory program.

Are these children having better overall life and educational outcomes from this? Are they taking time and energy away from classes they want to pursue to struggle in math courses they might not be truly passionate about?

And what about its impact on the non-marginalized kids? Because "everybody" is now participating, are honors courses now slowed and dumbed down so actual high-achievers will be less prepared for their future?

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#725

Post by red-iron-pine »

nancyhn wrote: post #529
btilly wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't worry. DEI programs have this covered as well. Stop using standardized tests to get in. And then just aim for the perfect "socially desirable" mix. Regardless of ability.

Can someone explain how DEI programs got so embeded despite being flagrantly regressive?

Well meaning if misguided attempts to address race and other social issues without improving pay or making structural changes to government and economic systems.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#726

Post by red-iron-pine »

DropInIn wrote: post #707
MostlyStable wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lengthen the school _year_ sure, but I'm skeptical that lengthening the school _day_ won't have, at best, mixed effects, especially given all the studies on sleep etc.

Even better idea: Kids just work at thier own pace and don't graduate until they complete all work successfully. Anything else is just a diploma mill.

who is going to fund that? it's not just education its subsidized day care, and "it gets done when it gets done" is going to either result in a lot of 20 year old Seniors -- who are still on taxpayer funded schooling -- or else the bar gets lowered to push these kids through fast albeit at their own fast pace.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#727

Post by PawgerZ »

daniel-cussen wrote: post #434
gnicholas wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure it will — there are still plenty of schools elsewhere that offer advanced coursework, and their graduates can more than fill the freshman class of elite colleges. For example, I grew up in Sacramento, and our public schools had a tracked program from 2nd grade. Pretty much all of us took algebra/geometry in middle school, and those who were advanced were taking precalc or calc by 9th grade. It has been a…

Tracking helped me in particular by making my homeroom (the British school equivalent, j called a class) more civilized, n fair to students w less academic talent than me. Given the tracking in English n at one point, briefly, Mathematics, it meant the other boys had a shot at getn the best score in the class or at all enjoying leniency in grading, which my presence as a future Erdosian mathematician made impossible,…

May I ask, what is Erdosian?

As for bullying, I was a "gifted" kid in school, too. I was treated nicely when people wanted help and bullied ruthlessly when they didn't need me.

> their parents would deny them privileges n beat them sometimes if they weren't excellent students

100% agree that this was one of the biggest factors in my bullying. Shame is powerful, and if a child is being shamed for their academic achievements, they will lash out at someone who has what they desire: good grades in this instance.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#728

Post by [deleted] »

logicalmonster wrote: post #724
pwthornton wrote: post #299

This is the way. Teach kids more, not less. Ask more of them, not less. If you need to lengthen the school day and school year to do so, do it. Do it now. "So what should we do instead? Dallas came up with an answer: Teach kids more math instead of teaching them less. In 2019, Dallas Independent School District implemented a new equity policy that encouraged many more people to take honors math classes: Many capable…

> The move has dramatically increased participation among traditionally marginalized children This program may or may not be a fantastic idea, but "participation" is about the worst possible metric for measuring the overall impact of a mandatory program. Are these children having better overall life and educational outcomes from this? Are they taking time and energy away from classes they want to pursue to struggle i…

[deleted]

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#729

Post by Workaccount2 »

AlexandrB wrote: post #444
Workaccount2 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At it's very foundation liberal ideology cracks pretty badly if "Everyone is born equally capable" is false.

I suspect that 'liberals believe "Everyone is born equally capable"' is a strawman. I hang out with pretty liberal people and no one actually believes anything like this. Interestingly, the article actually lists out a more nuanced, realistic version of this idea (with a link to research): > But whatever you think about the morality of this idea, it simply will not work. The reason is that the strong hereditarian hyp…

Usually no liberals actually will echo that line, or even are aware of it. But the very philosophy dictates that it must be true. And ask them the difference between a checkout clerk and an MIT grad, and they'll tell you it was all about opportunity.

It's also why liberals have a very strong anti-science approach to fields like behavioral genetics, while falling over themselves to praise the social sciences.

Re: Refusing to teach kids math will not improve equity

#730

Post by PawgerZ »

wnc3141 wrote: post #46

A common phrase of the "soft bigotry of low expectations" is at work here. Those held to lower standards will fall to lower standards, deprived of the resources and support to achieve. The article attached provides a fantastic explanation. https://www.educationnext.org/teachers-should-replace-the-so...

Also see: Labeling theory and self-fulfilling prophecy.
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