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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#721

Post by savryn »

Shared404 wrote: post #690
savryn wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the people beating up anyone are the cultural underclass/proles, be it rural whites or ghetto blacks -- by definition these are not cultural elites. Physical violence (and any indicator of physical needs- shelter, food, safety) basically signals 'cheap animal unit', and animals are useful tools to be managed by the machinery (of capital, patriarchy, globalism, blah blah etc whatever left or right wing flavor of 'powe…

Wow uhh... that sure is a post. Let's try to disentagle this gish gallop shall we :) ? > the people beating up anyone are the underclass/proles, be it rural whites or ghetto blacks -- by definition these are not cultural elites. But they do make up the culture of the parts of society people actually live in. > Physical violence (and physical needs, shelter, food, safety) basically signals 'cheap animal unit', and ani…

sorry but discussions of culture trends can't be easily parsed by people who can only think so ...literally

why not just get stuck on 'what IS culture even', 'what is a trend Really??', and other forms of useless filler-think that magically only crop up when a middle class smart-and-friendly-smile type person is made uncomfortable by working class people actually 'noticing things' with their eyes and ears...

Policy-wonks aren't gonna be in the family rooms where people say things that matter to them, where populism and/or prejudice brews.

Get to know some immigrant communities, they don't understand english to watch fox or cnn. Black folks didn't make vaccine decisions based on what channel you think they should watch. Wealthy white people buying property or voting with their feet/dollars aren't going to tell all the friends they went to college with exactly why, revealed preferences and all that.

I'm a radical feminist, if american conservatives/rep have common cause then all the better

Imagine understanding capitalism, the state, warfare, or the history of any nation at all.... and still having party loyalties??? sad :)

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#722

Post by undersuit »

throwaway_l33t wrote: post #604
undersuit wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abstinence is a form of penance. Frankly if the office doesn't bend over backwards for your self-flagellation every week I'm OK with it. Are you demanding that the entire office fast with you if they can't find a pescatarian option?

You missed the point: if I’m planning lunch with my friends and they want to go to barbecue on Friday, I’m going to be suggesting an alternative so I can get something to eat too. Just like we had to plan lunches around my Jain, Jewish and Muslim coworkers dietary restrictions. So, in fact, some people will have to do something different to include me in some of their activities.

Just go to confession afterwards, it's not a carnal sin, and it would remove your self-imposed inconvenience on your coworkers.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#723

Post by Dig1t »

koprulusector wrote: post #560
narrator wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

I'm not one to stick up for 4chan normally, but they are all about free thought. Mostly deplorable, but definitely free.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#724

Post by brianmurphy »

leshow wrote: post #559
Dig1t wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>LGBTQ is a minority I mean yes, physically they are a minority. Culturally, they are incredibly mainstream. There are examples everywhere. There are tons of big movies and TV shows featuring gay people coming out. _Every_ company changes their logo during pride month. Look at the Apple Watch or iPhone, they come preloaded with Pride wallpapers and watch faces, they produce pride bands for the watch, which sell very…

You're confusing the fact that the existence of LGBTQ people is being acknowledged finally in the mainstream with some sort of shift of what the 'dominant culture' is. All of these things you listed merely acknowledge that non-cis gendered people exist, that's it. There is no massive shift in the mainstream culture. In fact, there are legions of reactionaries incredibly aggrieved by having this existence "shoved in t…

The dominance of queer culture goes much farther than simply existing.

Criticize it in even the most mild way at most companies and expect to be fired from your job.

The dominance goes even further. Direct criticism isn't necessary. Try to promote straight culture and you'll also get dogpiled and fired. (Brandon Eich)

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#725

Post by undersuit »

thalassophobia wrote: post #689
flangola7 wrote: post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know several Catholics who have no problem using a transgender person's pronouns. Trying to use a religion as a cover for bigotry is disrespectful to both the transgender person and other members of the religion.

I know many Christians who do not fast, but that doesn't make not fasting OK by the Bible. This isn't using religion as a cover but obeying its rules.

Who makes the rules? The Bible? Which one? Can I use the Jefferson Bible?

Oh the Bible isn't the end-all-be-all and you need someone to make an executive decision sometimes? Who's that?

The Pope? Oh you're not of that kind of denomination? What about the President of the Mormon Church?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#726

Post by dnissley »

teachrdan wrote: post #394
Dig1t wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are scared to say this, because they quickly get labeled a Christofascist or alt-right something or other, but it's true. Trads are definitely the counter culture now. Tim Dillon made a joke recently, something along the lines of "The most radical non-conformist thing you can do now is wear rosary beads". I thought it was kind of funny, but also because it's true.

I honestly can't tell if this is satire or not. Catholics make up 23% of the US population. How can wearing rosary beads be non-conformist when Catholics are the single largest denomination in America? An astonishing SIX Supreme Court justices are Catholic. Was there ever a time a countercultural group had that kind of representation in government? Were there ever six justices who were hippies, or beatniks, or hobos?…

There's a difference between people "doing what they've always done" or coasting on cultural inertia e.g. people who are Catholic and that means they go to a Catholic church but otherwise has a very small effect on their life and people intentionally choosing to join a subculture, e.g. convert to Catholicism or rededicate themselves to a religion after being one of the folks "doing what they've always done".

The norm these days is for people to fall away from their religion, not to join one. I think this is obvious for anyone to see, but Pew has done lots of surveys on the decline of Christianity in America: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/modeling-the...

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#727

Post by germinalphrase »

Taywee wrote: post #669
ur-whale wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the stupid childish fun that I did 15 years ago. You realize you've just confessed you've grown old (and likely cranky)?

It happens to the best of us. Personally, I don't think 30 is all that old, but I am cranky. I also don't think there's a "getting out of touch" aspect of holding the opinion that silly stupidity is not the same thing as angry paranoia.

You’re a old young person, but you’ll be a young old person soon enough.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#728

Post by hinkley »

at-w wrote: post #716
tonfreed wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoken like a true 1960s establishment thinker. Put yourself in the shoes of a WW2 veteran in the 60s. He sees his children get sucked into drug culture and protesting against the military that just 20 years ago saved the Pacific from tyranny. You turn on the news and see them making a nuisance of themselves in the streets. They're ungroomed, ugly, and do weird sex stuff. You ask yourself where you went wrong raising…

Or more objectively, they see murder rates literally doubling from 1964-1974, a rise never before seen in American history. They see a massive drug epidemic and an entirely unprecedented breakdown in the family unit that results in literally millions of children born to single mothers. They see a collapse of social institutions coinciding with an again unprecedented rise in suicides and antisocial activities. They se…

Keepin your head above water

Makin’ your way if you can

Temporary layoffs

Good Times

Easy credit ripoffs

Good Times

Ain’t we lucky we got ‘em?

Good Times!

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#729

Post by skyyler »

Taywee wrote: post #643
skyyler wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the ratio of shit:lulz has changed. I think your ability to tolerate shit to get to the lulz has changed.

You can look at some old archives: http://yotsubasociety.org/ and https://purl.stanford.edu/tf565pz4260 I'm downloading it now to look. I have a strong feeling that 2007 /v/ will look strikingly different from modern /v/.

I'm sure that it will be different. Dubs guy hadn't given way for Patrick Bateman worship yet.

I don't think that it would be any less hateful, though. It's just that most of the hate was ironic early on...

There's just this weird thing about how if you perform a ritual ironically, you're still performing the ritual.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#730

Post by at-w »

jjulius wrote: post #682
sjducb wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can easily make the same case about 4 Chan. 4 Chan is rooted in things that are objectively good: free thought, satire and not taking anything too seriously.

Respectfully disagree. I'd argue that those are just fronts 4Chan hopes to hide behind so that it can remain a cesspool.

Can you see how '60s establishment types might think the same about people "hiding behind" peace and love gibberish to remain a cesspool of drug pushing, adulterous freeloaders, whose success in mainstreaming drugs and hostility to social institutions objectively coincided directly with an explosion in violent crime and social issues like single motherhood, drug addiction, rioting and urban decay, all of which rose to unprecedented levels from 1965-1975 in every Western country that experienced a similar "counterculture"?

That's not to make any judgement on the societal value of 4Chan vs. the 1960s counterculture. It's just that neither is/was a uniform group that can be defined as "rooted in X, Y, or Z," and people who claim they can are typically blind to the bias of their cultural perspective.

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