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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#721

Post by kyle_martin1 »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

Given the data we have now, you’re right— if humans were rational we’d be focusing topics that affect the masses. Using minority groups (BLM, LGBT, Immigration, etc.) as shields for larger agendas is an effective defense strategy.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#722

Post by fefe23 »

omegaworks wrote: post #701
karaterobot wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Economist reader who sometimes scratches his head at how late they are to the party, I love your framing here. I appreciate their sobriety though.

From the very first paragraph: >(trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) Bigots offended at being called out on their bigotry. The Economist reveals their bias and their stake in the debate by asserting that "terf is a slur" and later by representing "gender critical" ideologies as "mainstream." It's plainly irresponsible journalism and not at all sober.

That sounds like you are not contesting that it's a slur.

You just think the slurred party deserves it.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#723

Post by iaml »

LanceH wrote: post #288
mike00632 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there is. My legal name and the name I sign on documents is "Michael" but I could have a preference for "Mike". Are you really going to deny that to me because there is an "observable reality" that is different from my preference?

Are you going to lose your shit, call my boss and try to get me fired when I call you Michael because it's what's written down for everyone to see?

You describe one possible situation, let me imagine a different one. I say that I like going by Mike, and you keep making a point of always referring to me as Michael even when it doesn't really make sense to go full formal. After multiple months of it, I kinda get tired of this and decide to accept offer from another company and tell our boss that. When they ask me why I want to leave I'll be sure to mention that, and maybe they'll evaluate our productivity and decide it's better for business to just fire you instead. See how different those two situations are even thought the premise is the same?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#724

Post by dbsmith83 »

omegaworks wrote: post #701
karaterobot wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an Economist reader who sometimes scratches his head at how late they are to the party, I love your framing here. I appreciate their sobriety though.

From the very first paragraph: >(trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) Bigots offended at being called out on their bigotry. The Economist reveals their bias and their stake in the debate by asserting that "terf is a slur" and later by representing "gender critical" ideologies as "mainstream." It's plainly irresponsible journalism and not at all sober.

> By allowing the author to hide behind anonymity it reveals The Economist's biases and their stake in the debate by asserting that "terf is a slur" and representing "gender critical" ideologies as "mainstream."

Why do you wish the author was named--so you can have their head? You sound like the people in the article trying to stifle debate

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#725

Post by klipt »

mabub24 wrote: post #399
deadite wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These ground exclusively concern themselves with trans-women. I second this. Maybe it's some echo chamber effect or a minority stirring shit up, but I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? I…

I suspect it has much to do with the idea that trans-men are transitioning into a gender "in power." That is, adopting masculine social behavior and lifestyle allow transmen to enter the patriarchal fold and slip quite seamlessly into a male dominant society, as long as they remain unknown . Once they are known, the idea that they must be excommunicated or "proven" as female becomes imperative. Transmen are subject t…

I think it stems from privilege.

Trans women are seen as seeking female privileges (like the ability to compete against women in sports, which is easier than competing against men). Which enrages some people.

Trans men are seen as giving up their female privileges, to which everyone shrugs and says "you want less privilege? Fine by me!"

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#726

Post by zozbot234 »

danShumway wrote: post #710
handrous wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only pile on with anecdotal evidence from what my spouse has seen, working in middle schools: yeah, like half of kids who ask to start going by an opposite-gender name, ask to be addressed by different pronouns, start dressing differently, et c., in middle school end up changing their minds before they reach high school, and it is often girls. From what I have heard this does not, however, lead me to believe th…

I'll add onto this, if people are genuinely worried about invasive surgery, the policing of trans identity is counterproductive to addressing that concern. What would be productive is allowing kids to use different pronouns, allowing them to dress themselves the way they wish and allowing them to seek affirmative care and affirmative communities -- so that they can explore their own gender identity without feeling li…

The gender critical are not policing trans identity; rather, trans-activists are doing the policing of gender expression by loudly insisting that any kind of socially non-normative gender expression should be seen as tantamount to and ipso facto equated with some sort of trans identity. Your own reference to "gender fluidity" as tantamount to a separate identity rather than a characteristics that all humans may share to a lesser or greater extent, is an especially clear example of this. Need I point out how this policing may be harmful to non-heteronormatively-expressing folks?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#727

Post by munk-a »

btilly wrote: post #578
scubbo wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any claim to be male, female, non-binary or whatever must be accepted at face value. And that the person who is making the claim should have the right to any treatment that they wish, up to and including surgery. I can understand some caution around the latter part of this quote, given how traumatic, invasive, and costly surgery can be. It is a defensible and reasonable position that there should be _some_ barrier-…

But how can anyone _possibly_ deny the first part? How could anyone contradict an individual who states their own gender - on what grounds can you claim to know how someone feels about themselves better than they themself do? How do you define denying the first part? According to my child's world view, I need to ask them every day what their pronouns are today. And any accidental slip-ups on any adult's part are a de…

I can completely understand how frustrating the situation can be - I am extremely supportive of trans rights but I also feel like that decision starts at adulthood. Puberty blockers seem like a really good way to compromise on that point since doors are being kept open but no decision is being fully committed to.

Being a teenager is really confusing to begin with, and the last thing children need is more ways to categorize and divide people into clumps.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#728

Post by ahartmetz »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #392
smoldesu wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The experience of "coming out" (to me) was reconciling my sexuality with my family. In America, you're basically born straight and everyone in your family assumes so. The easiest part of it was coming out to my close friends, who already know that I'm not vain or chasing attention with it. The harder half is finding some way to frame it to your parents (and grandparents). Knocking on their door, sitting down in their…

> In some sense, I know it's my fault: I'm basically telling them that their bloodline ends here, I hope they enjoyed their transient acknowledgement on this earth while it lasts. That's a tough pill to swallow for a generation that's all about making the idyllic "50s family" a reality. That is an uncommonly insightful and empathetic characterization.

I think fault implies intention, so I wouldn't call it fault. It's just a conflict of life goals and personal properties that no one particularly chose to have.

Though I also approve of the intention of GP to understand the situation from their parents' perspective.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#729

Post by pseudalopex »

eloff wrote: post #681
jolux wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. This is frequently claimed but is untrue, or at the very least highly uncertain. The studies most often referenced have serious methodological errors, including inconsistent definitions of dysphoria (owing partially to proble…

The fact that it spreads inside friend circles should be all it takes to defeat the idea that it is based on some fundamental internal gender dysphoria. It's more akin to a social meme. In not saying that applies to all cases, but definitely a good number of them among young people, especially girls.

Birds of a feather flock together.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#730

Post by deng-xiao »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

>It just feels like we're being distracted.

It is how they killed OWS. Now it is cool to be a member of the party of the rich, and to support megacorps and endless war.

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