Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#721

Post by abalone » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 1:40 AM UTC

fricat1ve wrote: post #700

abalone wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In earlier days, employees generally would see this as just doing their jobs in developing technology that their employers wanted developed and would not concern themselves about ultimate uses and applications. This is a false history. In the 1960s the U.S. was full of young people questioning whether they should just do as they were told and be a good, dutiful employee. Since then there has been a massive campaign…

>there has been a massive campaign to roll back what was called “Vietnam syndrome” — the idea that you should consider the morality of your actions and contributions to society, not mere legality. Is that what is typically meant by "Vietnam syndrome"? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Syndrome Also, isn't it a stretch to say Hollywood movies about WWII propagandize the idea one should only consider the legality…

Didn't say that. WWII was a case where legality and morality overlap more conveniently which is why it is a favored topic. Still debatable in many aspects e.g. Nagasaki, firebombing cities, not bombing the concentration camps, etc., but in comparison to say Vietnam, you see the point. You don't see too many films these days celebrating the nobility of unquestioningly doing one's duty to support the righteous fight in Vietnam.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by olleromam91 » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 1:43 AM UTC

edanm wrote: post #651

samirillian wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is some menacing language. What exactly is the right way to kill a person.

In self defense? In defense of others? Those are considered cases where killing someone is legitimate by almost everyone.

If only we could all agree who's life matters the most. That would be great =P

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#723

Post by robertkrahn01 » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 1:43 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #195

I completely support the employees but it is criminal that this NYT article does not mention the extensive roots of Silicon Valley in Pentagon funding. SV as a whole is substantially a creation of military spending. Just recently in the AI space: - Siri was spun out of a Pentagon project -- look up SRI International and CALO. Its purpose: a "soldier’s servant".[1] - Autonomous driving is a direct evolution of Pentago…

I can really recommend Waldrop's The Dream Machine [1]. It is a pretty detailed description of the different driving forces that let to the Internet, personal computers, AI research etc. Yes, a lot was influenced by the US military and DARPA, starting with RADAR systems and the need for computation in WW2 and continuing with the cold war, the Sputnik shock and increased research spending afterwards. On the other hand, a lot of the folks involved certainly had no militaristic attitude or intentions. A lot of government funding early on sparked an amazing development, the foundations of the things we work with today.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Dream-Machine-Licklider-Revolution-Co...

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by hedgenetFT » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 1:47 AM UTC

Just as with a nuclear arsenal, what keeps the peace is a balance of power between the nations. If one nations has access to a military technology that allows it to destroy it's ennemies and steal it's resources without fear of retaliation, it WILL use it.

Our well meaning google friends might believe they are doing the right thing, but they are just doing what's fashionable instead of really thinking the consequences of these actions. Making ourselves weaker in the AI race augments the probability of war instead of diminishing it.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#725

Post by bigjimslade » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 1:47 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #195

I completely support the employees but it is criminal that this NYT article does not mention the extensive roots of Silicon Valley in Pentagon funding. SV as a whole is substantially a creation of military spending. Just recently in the AI space: - Siri was spun out of a Pentagon project -- look up SRI International and CALO. Its purpose: a "soldier’s servant".[1] - Autonomous driving is a direct evolution of Pentago…

While you are certainly correct that the military has provided the genesis of various valuable technologies, it doesn't have to continue to be that way. We could choose to expend our limited resources on more meaningful, and socially responsible, outlets. This move by Google employees is to me a welcome tug against the hopelessly chaotic military machine, and a push back against continued military involvement in SV affairs. I'm happy to see individuals taking this position.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by paulddraper » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 1:48 AM UTC

samastur wrote: post #519

paulddraper wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first thought, it seems 100% absurd that an ad-hoc underpowered group of people with small arms counts for anything in the modern age. But history shows otherwise: Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq. Empirically, every totalitarian state bans citizen firearms (Nazi Germany, USSR, Cuba, N. Korea). For "good" reason. While of course different, crypto has many of the same pros and cons as firearms, and it should be supported…

Every example of yours had plenty of external help without which I am doubtful they would have as much success. No idea what your definition of totalitarian state is, but there certainly was not a complete ban on firearms neither in Nazi Germany nor in many of post WW2 socialist countries (e.g. hunters).

> there certainly was not a complete ban on firearms neither in Nazi Germany

It actually started post-WWI (due to Treaty of Versailles).

> In 1919 the German government passed the Regulations on Weapons Ownership...anyone found in possession of a firearm or ammunition was subject to five years' imprisonment and a fine of 100,000 marks. [1]

Laws were later relaxed from a total ban, though ownership was low, as all guns and ammo had been confiscated earlier. And Jews and companies with at least some Jewish ownership were forbidden to own any firearms or participate in their manufacture.

When oppressing a group, either selectively or indiscriminately, guns + speech for that group must go.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_legislation_in_Germany#Reg...

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by fineline » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 1:48 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #690

monfrere wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your discussion of "legality" here is U.S.-centric. Google has offices in Germany, France, Poland, Russia, Turkey, U.A.E., India, and China, to name a few. How would you feel if Google worked on military technology for those countries? Would you point out that it was inevitable that their militaries would seek ways to use A.I.? Would you point out that the Turkish armed forces' activities are permitted under Turkish…

I bet neither China, nor Russia, nor the US would allow foreign citizens in foreign countries develop any serious military technology for their armies. Even their own citizens would be checked in detail before being allowed to work on it. If a technology is not under that kind of scrutiny, chances are its military applications are... far-fetched.

Lots of military technology is traded between countries all the time, tanks, planes, guns, boats, missiles, etc. China just bought a bunch of Su35 jet fighters from Russia.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/chinas-air-force-m...

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by rieter » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 1:48 AM UTC

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #712

ajross wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SV as a whole is substantially a creation of military spending. That's true, but not really in the general way you argue. Military spending on bay area R&D has been more or less insignificant for the entirety of the internet era. It exists, sure, but it's not driving meaningful revenue for any of the big players. Silicon Valley since the mid 90's has been a consumer thing only. And even in the genesis of the valley…

> Military spending on bay area R&D has been more or less insignificant for the entirety of the internet era. This is ridiculously false. SV receives billions of dollars from the Pentagon, the CIA, and a variety of other government agencies annually. Here is just one example: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-09/peter-thi...

Palantir is just a minuscule part of SV ecosystem, entirely insignificant in the overall picture.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by ajross » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 1:49 AM UTC

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #712

ajross wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SV as a whole is substantially a creation of military spending. That's true, but not really in the general way you argue. Military spending on bay area R&D has been more or less insignificant for the entirety of the internet era. It exists, sure, but it's not driving meaningful revenue for any of the big players. Silicon Valley since the mid 90's has been a consumer thing only. And even in the genesis of the valley…

> Military spending on bay area R&D has been more or less insignificant for the entirety of the internet era. This is ridiculously false. SV receives billions of dollars from the Pentagon, the CIA, and a variety of other government agencies annually. Here is just one example: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-09/peter-thi...

You're having a Dr. Evil moment. "Billions of dollars" doesn't go very far in this context. Apple Computer's revenue alone was two orders of magnitude higher than that. Military spending is noise relative to consumer revenue in the valley.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#730

Post by olleromam91 » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 1:50 AM UTC

opportune wrote: post #431

MikkoFinell wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about everything. But consider ISIS, what kind of communication should we perform that will make future groups like that stop beheading people and raping children? There are situations where violence unfortunately is the only option left, and in that case you will want it to be as targeted and clean as possible to avoid collateral damage. Currently drone strikes is the best tech for that purpose, and we…

If the US only were using drones against ISIS then that would be a different story. The fact of the matter is that the US uses drones on much less morally cut-and-dry groups than ISIS, and will likely continue to do so in the future. It's like if a farmer wanted you to make them a shotgun so they could kill the wolves terrorizing their flock but you knew they were also going to use that shotgun to rob their neighbor…

I see your analogy. But it's not totally perfect, because in a (hopefully functioning) democracy, the farmer can be told what to do by his constituents. Obviously this doesn't always happen, but do we trust the entity we voted for (USA.gov), or the one that makes money off our existence (google.com).

I don't always know.