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Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

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Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#711

Post by hinkley »

dagmx wrote: post #112

I’m glad there finally seems to be a push to a better standard in North America. I’m really curious how this affects Teslas market share though going forward. Their supercharger network is why we continue with them despite countless other issues. It’s their biggest moat as far as I’m concerned. Now I have significantly more options, and my next car will not be a Tesla. I’m sure I’m not alone in that. Is the brand nam…

They could sell charge circuitry and battery packs to the big three. They’ve been wanting to sell batteries to people for ages. Given how much of the cost of a car they are, maybe that’s a reasonably profitable market.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#712

Post by londons_explore »

SomewhatLikely wrote: post #433
spike021 wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe on HN the majority of people have those modern cars, but I assure you in the real world the odds are not that good.

As of 2018, all new cars in the U.S. have been required to have a backup camera.

The backup camera requirement really shaped the auto industry. It meant all models needed a screen too. And that in turn meant that many cars used the same screen for other kinds of UI, replacing buttons and dials, and requiring a computer, software teams, etc.

Compare to Europe, where low end cars don't have a screen - and are also substantially cheaper.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#713

Post by ShadowBanThis01 »

SllX wrote: post #688
ShadowBanThis01 wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. But, to be fair, the Chinese were still watching movies on CD-I well into the 2000s. So I admit to marginalizing their choice on anything.

> So now, once again, the USA adopts a "standard" shunned by the rest of the world. Maybe I could have the wrong read, but this sentence structure: > the USA… shunned by the rest of the world. Does two things: it implies there's a standard "the rest of the world" has agreed on (there isn't, and there never is, it's one of the things that makes the world big ) and it signals you as probably one of the two types of peo…

That's a lot of cogitating on my motives. I'm just an American who hates dealing with non-standard "standards." I hated it with SCSI's connector fiasco. I hated how Sony undermined Firewire (oh, and AES/EBU before that, and kept pushing their MemoryStick long after the world had settled on SD), and that USB failed to learn from the idiocy of SCSI's connector fiasco. And don't even get me started on Lightning.

And there are just plain shitty standards, like ATSC's. Anyway, for adults who have lived through plenty of these standards blunders, it's even more irritating to see them not headed off by the only entity that has a chance of doing so in this instance: the federal government.

The last I heard, CCS 2 was set to be widely adopted. And sure enough, any charging connection that doesn't support DC is absurd. So yes you can argue it's good the government didn't act sooner and mandate one of those earlier short-sighted ones.

Eh, whatever. As long as something dominates the continent I guess it's OK. It's not as if I'm likely to take my car to Europe or Africa on a lark.

I just think we've all had enough of dongles.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#714

Post by jaclaz »

legulere wrote: post #601
Y_Y wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An electric kettle can draw about 3kW, I've only once seen a home with a limit this absurdly low

Apparently there exists even 1.5 kW in Italy: https://tariffe.segugio.it/guide-e-strumenti/domande-frequen...

Yes, though it is not used much anymore, in Italy most contracts are 3 kW, a number have been upgraded to 4.5 kW or to 6 kW, but that's it.

Due to the way contracts are currently made, there is a fixed amount you pay for the availability of power (no matter if you use it or not) so everyone is on the lower possible amount.

There is also a (relative) complication for new houses or (important) renewals, the electrical system needs to be designed, and while for systems up to 6 kW it is enough that the design is made by the technical representative of the installer/electrician, for larger power a project is needed by a certified electrical engineer, which has a cost.

But as said the real issue is that the local infrastructure is simply not dimensioned for the large increments of power that are (or will be) required by the diffusion of heat pumps and induction stoves, let alone the recharging of EV's.

I believe that the medium voltage (in Italy it is usually @12,000 or @20,000 volts) distribution can be enough or can be upgraded relatively easily, the issue is with the low voltage (the 380-400V) distribution lines and the transformers/electrical cabins in cities.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#715

Post by apexalpha »

I don't really care whether it's CCS or NACS. What I do care about is that a choice is made.

The worst outcome for EV adaption would be to have multiple different charger networks and plugs that all need adapters to be compatible with each other.

What's important is that there is single standard, not how thin the cable is or how it looks.

For the EU, CCS was chosen a long time ago and this means every car can use every charger without thinking about it.

For the US, it makes sense to go with NACS if Tesla opens up their network.

Cars are always built to spec for either EU, US or any market. So it matters little if EU and US chose a different plug.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#716

Post by mavhc »

_ea1k wrote: post #369
bryanlarsen wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm, we need a good name for the older Tesla plugs that aren't NACS compliant. When I said "current NACS", that's what I was referring to. I should have been more explicit. Tesla vehicles built before ~2020 do not and can not speak CCS without a retrofit.

Arguably, those are !NACS at all. It wasn't called NACS until the specs were delivered, along with the requirement to support CCS signaling.

Yeah, October 2020 is the time they started adding CCS compatible ECU. Surprised it's not a software update, it's just a new protocol. Is there a voltage difference? Or is the ECU 3rd party?

At least with Tesla's exponential sales the number of people it affects will be smaller. 1 million out of 4 million I think

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#717

Post by diesel4 »

jp191919 wrote: post #314
hinkley wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend who is not an EV driver got stuck with an EV rental (Bolt) for a semi-rural trip and boy was that a ton of drama. I’ve been thinking hard about an EV myself and now I’m looking at PHEVs instead. I’ve gotten a crash course in EV charging around here and it’s not good. Level 2 chargers are not for spontaneous trips and level 1 chargers are fucking pointless. It estimated two and a half days to charge from 40-…

A Bolt is about the worst EV someone could use for a road trip.

The Bolt's charging speed is glacial. San francisco-> Palm Springs and spent 2 1/2 hours charging vs about 50 minutes total in the Tesla.

The 50 minutes in the Tesla is the same time for a bathroom and quick food stop. The additional hour and a half in the Bolt is pure time wasted.

Add even more time if you drive faster than 65.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#718

Post by TexanFeller »

vegardx wrote: post #708
TexanFeller wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people often travel regularly, like I do to visit family 150mi away. It would sure be nice to be able to charge while I'm at their house at a rate that would fill me back up. Range and charging speed matters, y'all shouldn't be just hand waving it away.

It's not being hand waved away. You're just constructing scenarios that most people owning an electric vehicle will agree is such a non-issue that it's not really worth debating. There are plenty of fast chargers to fill the gaps. Many people travel regularly. Many people don't. That's how we ended up on the average being 50km.

> There are plenty of fast chargers to fill the gaps.

Definitely not on the route to where my family lives. I checked last year when I was looking at EV, there's like a single L2 charger at a hotel on the whole route. I expect it will be several more years before the millions of us with family in the country can reasonably buy an EV.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#719

Post by mensetmanusman »

Alupis wrote: post #621
wilg wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The load is spread out in a completely different way than gas, because 100% of gas cars get gas at a station, while 80% of people with EVs slow-charge at home (or work or whatever). Fast chargers are for road-trips only. Obviously, if we're going to move to cleaner energy we will need infrastructure investment. Worrying that it's not already there makes no sense. The demand for improved electrical infrastructure will…

> Obviously, if we're going to move to cleaner energy It is very unclear whether electric vehicles actually are more environmentally friendly. They sound great - but if you dig into where all the materials come from, it's shocking how externalized we've made that problem. It might be cleaner by time you get to drive it... but it's not cleaner to produce and operate, and in fact may be worse in some cases. Emissions a…

Popular media focuses on emissions. Researchers consider the entire lifecycle:

https://electrek.co/2022/03/04/light-duty-evs-have-64-lower-...

EVs still win.

Re: Rivian embraces Tesla's charging standard for EVs

#720

Post by gitfan86 »

specialist wrote: post #537
sangnoir wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sandy Munro has a conflict of interest he doesn't always highlight when reporting on Tesla-related issues.

Please tell.

He is really into good engineering which has made him a huge fan of Tesla, especially since they took some of his recommendations and incorporated them into their manufacturing process.

It is fair to say he is biased, but at the same time I don't see why his assessment of NACS vs CSS is wrong.

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