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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So let me get this straight: companies shouldn't be investing money into revitalizing impoverished areas? No, they should do so, just not be so exploitative about it (e.g. deliberately going into areas full of desperate people, for the reason of using that desperation to exert maximum control with minimum accountability).

The lowest paid person at Amazon is earning well over the median wage in Bessemer, Alabama. Amazon could probably have no problem staffing the center at $11/hr there, but they're paying $18-$22 instead. How on earth can you define that as 'exploitation'? It's borderline charity, given the observable labor market equilibrium there.

Paying someone more money does not make working conditions less exploitative.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No objection that most of EU is better than the US in these regards, but Amazon warehouse workers get some of the best healthcare insurance that I’ve ever seen in the US. Similar to what the top-level-commenter pointed out, I guarantee that the warehouse jobs in Bessemer provide among the best healthcare available in the town. The US as a whole is awful at providing healthcare, but healthcare is a particular area whe…

I'm an Amazon warehouse worker in North Carolina. As far as health insurance, I pay 100% of the first $1500, then 10% of the next $15,000 (so $3000 total), then 0% of anything over $16,500. I wouldn't call that astonishing, but it is the minimum $0 monthly premium plan. Also, I'm generally happy at work. I basically feel well paid and well treated.

To help non-US people understand this plan:

> but it is the minimum $0 monthly premium plan.

The monthly premium is the cost of the insurance plan. A "$0" premium isn't actually $0, it means that Amazon is paying 100% of the monthly costs of maintaining the insurance, requiring $0 contribution from the employee. Many companies (especially warehouse type operations) are less generous, and require some monthly contribution from the employee to pay the premium. The worst health insurance I ever had required me to pay 100% of the monthly premium, with $0 committed by the company. That company lost a lot of employees.

> I pay 100% of the first $1500

This is the "deductible". The covered person is responsible for 100% of costs until the deductible is met, although there are many exceptions. For example, a routine checkup might be 100% covered ($0 cost), as well as a range of preventative care procedures described by the ACA.

> then 10% of the next $15,000

After the deductible has been met, the person is responsible for coinsurance of additional costs. An extra $5000 procedure would translate to a $500 bill for the patient.

> then 0% of anything over $16,500.

This is where the "out of pocket maximum" or OOPM is reached. In this case, the most the patient could expect to pay is $1500 (deductible) + $1500 (10% of next $15K) = $3000. After that, all excess charges are handled by the insurance company until the insurance year resets.

In short: Health care will cost between $0 and $3000 depending on how many services are used for the year (excluding fully covered benefits like annual checkup, depression screening, breast cancer screening for women, vaccinations, and other services covered for free under the ACA)

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#713
post #682

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

I've lived periods of life in different cultures, income levels, etc... It's interesting how people see things in such a binary sense (eg: x is good while y is bad, universally). Everyone does it and it presents itself differently in each perspective, but it's been an interesting watch. As I've grown older I've tried to resist the urge to marry myself to these stark beliefs. Following this thread there's a lot of goo…

Ah, nuanced centrism. The golden midway. This is where progress is made.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this. - Health care - Worker protections - Required time off - Sick time - Maternity leave etc. Here its $15. And you're on your fucking own. If you compare it to completely underdeveloped or dictatorial economies... Sure I guess its way better. But the US shouldn't be comparing comparing itself to that. Its like saying "This engineer is horrible, but he's no…

So work hard and get a better job. The fact is that you will not if you have a safety net under you. I lived on welfare and refused to make more money until it was a LOT more money. I finally got off the safety net only when my income increased five fold. Even that was a little begrudging because I had $800 a month in food stamps and free medical care and so all those costs got flipped onto me--not to mention the $6000 tax credit I lost and instead had to pay that amount. There are many families who are pulling down far more in benefits than I was. These safety nets are fucked up, and they gotta go. A better alternative is either UBI or a negative income tax.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US they still have closed shops (where you have to be a union member to work there), and in the UK you still need to reach a threshold of membership before the employer has to 'recognise' them and negotiate with them. The situation isn't as different as you are making out.

In some states in the US. In other states, there are “right to work” laws banning closed shops.

Isn’t “some states” every state but Montana?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#716
post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia: Indentured servitude is a form of labor in which a person (an indenture) agrees to work without salary for a specific number of years for eventual compensation or debt repayment. "Without salary" "WITHOUT SALARY" And no, the government isn't your nanny. What a bunch of leftist doo-doo. Learn a bit about how horrible unions were in the 70s, and maybe I'll be convinced that "education" is actually a pathway…

if you're worried about how bad certain organizations were in the 70s i've got bad news for you about corporations

Just get the hell out of my country

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#717

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

What would Amazon do if they did Unionize? Move the warehouse?

Yes. This is why unions have to be big to be effective. The union has to be big enough to cover anywhere the company might be able to move to. This is why the Teamsters work so well, you can't outsource US trucking to Namibia.

This is also why the UAW started dying once containerized shipping made it practical to move factories overseas.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#718

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

I am asking for it but what the hell. I was a union member back in the last 1980s through 1990s early. I was in a low skilled job where we paid our dues and got exactly nothing for it. Oh we had a wonderful contract that specified it all. It was great for basically keeping anyone new boxed in. Each quarter if we were lucky we got a visit by our local union rep in her Mercedes which cost more than many of us made a ye…

This is what happens when union reps are in bed with the company they're supposedly holding to account. It happens because of corruption and nepotism, not because of unionization.

I might recommend to watch Waiting For Lefty to understand the distinction.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you're not kidding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer,_Alabama#Economy "Crime increased following the rise in unemployment and social disruption from the decline of manufacturing industries in the area. As of 2019 Bessemer ranks first in terms of violent crimes for US cities with 25,000 or more people." Population has fallen from its peak in 1970 of 33k to 26k today. Thanks for the reference. EDIT: Also hom…

thx for the chicken edit

What the cluck?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think being really broke greatly hinders your ability to think rationally. I never committed any violent crimes, but I know throughout most of 2016 I was really really broke (about $15,000 credit card debt, 3 months of unpaid rent, a lawsuit from my landlord for the back rent). In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. My desperate brain…

> In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. Because they're not, the idea that they are is paternalistic bullshit from the kind of people who get their news from John Oliver. Debt can be dangerous, and payday loans are commensurately more so due to their high rates. But debt is a _tool_, and just like middle- and upper-income folks can use…

Your arguments are entirely theoretical while ignoring the fact that payday loan businesses are regularly shut down for fraud. Just because debt as a concept isn't flawed doesn't mean the people selling debt are moral.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Tucker_(businessman)

Likewise, just because I post one extreme example of payday loan businesses being a fraud doesn't invalidate the entire industry. As a whole though, I feel the industry is quite scummy and often scammy.

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