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Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

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Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#711

Post by zamadatix »

whichquestion wrote: post #700
2pEXgD0fZ5cF wrote: post #13

Is this google starting to test the waters when it comes to arbitrarily kicking out software they personally don't like? (open source, decentralized, privacy oriented etc.) I might of course be exaggerating a bit here, keep that in mind. - Element and Matrix are growing but still not equipped to fight back at large against this, so it is unlikely to create too much negative press - If Google starts to catch too much…

Would there be a way to demonstrate that this hurt your growth and could you seek damages for this, despite the terms of service? And if this is actually a pattern with the Google Play Store, couldn’t someone design an elaborate set of traps to demonstrate this in Court?

Say you demonstrate it in a fullproof way, what are you seeking damages for? A store kicking your product out according to the agreement?

I.e. the thing you need to show in court isnt that Google stopped selling your app in its store because it didn't like it rather that it's a monopolistic marketplace or the terms are somehow invalid or so on. These are much higher bars, especially with 3rd party stores and side loading being available and used on the platform. It's considered a battle to prove these things in the Apple ecosystem I can't imagine trying to prove them in Play first.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#712

Post by grishka »

dominotw wrote: post #695
grishka wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So be it. It's okay for technology to require education. Stop infantilizing users.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 Dropbox wouldn't be a thing if we can "educate" users.

Dropbox's selling point is its simplicity. Apple's as well, for that matter. It's perfectly fine to have simplicity as your selling point.

Many people, myself included, love products that "just work" out of the box. That's what everything should be like, ideally. My gripe with modern technology is that it actively inhibits your ability to go in and tinker. DRM, forced app stores, code signing with enforced signing identity, all that kind of stuff.

See, imagine someone releases an amazing messaging app that's lightyears ahead of everything else on the market. But — it's only available through F-Droid or as an apk download on the developer's website. People will flock there and install it. And they will be unstoppable.

A concrete example of this phenomenon: Pokemon Go wasn't officially released in Russia, so you couldn't download it from the app stores. Yet, everyone played it. And I mean everyone, in 2016, especially during summer, you couldn't take a walk in the downtown St Petersburg without hearing the Pokemon Go sounds from people's phones. Android users sideloaded apks, iOS users created separate Apple IDs to bypass the geoblock. Suddenly everyone educated themselves to get the thing they wanted.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#713

Post by ensignavenger »

brettwilcox wrote: post #374
Arathorn wrote: post #3

So we got notified by the developer console at 21:45 UTC that the app had been suspended, but still haven’t had an email to explain why - it’s 02:24 now. Our assumption that this is due to someone reporting abusive content in Matrix to Google, and Element catching the blame — although this is currently speculation. To be clear: Element is a Matrix client just as Chrome is a Web browser, and just as it’s possible to v…

I'm testing Element and Matrix at American Airlines. There are big players with clout that take issue to instability such as this. How can I rely on my company using Element when it gets pulled? Not cool Google... To the element team, reach out to me if you can't get the support you are looking for.

How can you rely on the app/play store for any app? This suspension has nothing to do with element, it could have been any app.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#714

Post by mensetmanusman »

Remember,

Competitors on youtube do this all the time to take down competitive content.

E.g. false flags of inappropriate content or copyright to take down videos or channels.

This is a good situation for big players, because there will always exist a real or fake excuse to take down any potentially competitive threat.

Also, unfortunately this system aligns with the goals of our political system that wants to have a one stop shop for surveillance of ‘law breakers’.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#715

Post by Kinrany »

Macha wrote: post #686
olah_1 wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F-Droid bans apps for “hate speech” too[1]. Any mastodon app that refused to blacklist Gab got banned from F-Droid or something like that. It is the perfect example of why I don’t even bother with federated projects. It’s just “wouldn’t it be great if _I_ were in charge?” If that’s the situation, I’d rather Big Tech be in charge because at least they have some name recognition and hierarchy for decision making. Nobod…

This is mostly untrue. There was no requirement to blacklist gab. Mastodon clients on f-droid are allowed let users use Gab. What f-droid does not allow is apps preconfigured to connect to Gab, or who's primary purpose is to connect to Gab. There was even a petition to have fdroid remove an app (fedilab) that had a blacklist to disallow Gab then removed it, claiming that removing Gab from the blacklist was specifical…

Could you rephrase the fourth paragraph?

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#716

Post by bryant »

conradev wrote: post #682
eganist wrote: post #678

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is Matrix a threat to Google? Conjecture on my part: it's a threat to the ad spend Google gets from Facebook.

Facebook (24%) and Google (32%) compete pretty intensely for mobile ad spend. While we don’t know how much Facebook uses Google ads, that theory isn’t particularly satisfying because they compete so intensely. https://www.fastcompany.com/4032442/its-still-pi-day-so-we-d...

> Facebook (24%) and Google (32%) compete pretty intensely for mobile ad spend. While we don’t know how much Facebook uses Google ads, that theory isn’t particularly satisfying because they compete so intensely.

And yet...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/17/technology/google-faceboo...

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#717

Post by alex_reg »

conradev wrote: post #671
alex_reg wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably not a coincidence or an oversight, but rather a "what can we get away with" attempt, similar to previous efforts to remove UBlock Origin. But why? Matrix is tiny and no threat to Google services. I'd personally expect three letter agencies to be involved here. The US government has been aggressively going after encrypted communication for years, with extreme tactics like personal intimidation and sec…

This seems like a classic case of Hanlon’s razor and I don’t see any evidence to the contrary (yet). An NSL would be handled a lot differently than removing an app from a single app store for sexual content. Every indication so far points to it being a mistake by Google. From less than a week ago: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/01/googles-bots-decide-...

Maybe.

But if you always discount such events as coincidences, you risk remaining blind to emerging patterns.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#718

Post by Shorel »

bdefore wrote: post #143
pleeb wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google search has gone significantly down in quality over the last year or so. Even just searching for simple things only seems to yield articles from the same 20 or so major websites, and it’s worse if you’re looking for niche items. DuckDuckGo on the other hand is starting to give relatively better and more diverse results these days.

The alternatives do not have better quality. I periodically go with DDG and realize I'm !g'ing everything.

It totally depends on how do you write your search query:

If you write "teen movie about vampires" or something equally vague, Google is king.

If you write a direct quote or the exact error message, without typos, DDG gives better results. I can also put sentences in quotes to force an exact match. DDG is just an older school search engine, so old school tricks work better.

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#719

Post by sneak »

Arathorn wrote: post #3

So we got notified by the developer console at 21:45 UTC that the app had been suspended, but still haven’t had an email to explain why - it’s 02:24 now. Our assumption that this is due to someone reporting abusive content in Matrix to Google, and Element catching the blame — although this is currently speculation. To be clear: Element is a Matrix client just as Chrome is a Web browser, and just as it’s possible to v…

What is your policy surrounding your push notifications for your apps in the stores, when those notifications are originating from end servers on which people are saying things that you don't like?

Re: Element (Matrix chat app) suspended from the Google Play Store

#720

Post by yokem55 »

ttt0 wrote: post #304
uncoder0 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, like Parler, have been targeted by the powers that be. You may have nothing else in common other than that but, you're in the same boat it seems.

People will surely point out the obvious differences between the takedown of Parler and Element and I'd agree that it's not exactly the same thing, since Parler is its own platform and Element is just a client. However, when looking on a bigger picture of the recent takedowns and trying to make sense of it, it does indeed seem to be connected. The only conclusion that seems rational to me is as follows: Everyone trie…

>If this is actually what is happening, the only solution as far as I see it, is to extend the First Amendment to social media.

The first amendment works now by having clear boundaries between private and public spaces. Public spaces have clear first amendment protections. I can hold a sign on a publicly owned sidewalk (well, public right of way) begging for money or praising 'bong hits for Jesus'. But private spaces do not. I can't do the same thing on your living room. This allows folks to exercise their freedom of association, which is a pretty big part of the first amendment.

Where and how do you draw the line between public and private spaces then in an online context? Should the government be required to host unmoderated and uncensored discussion boards? And how do you keep the unregulated public spaces useful when such spaces are easily overrun by trolls and spammers?

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