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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

lore.kernel.org

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#711

Post by [deleted] »

DannyBee wrote: post #400
endtime wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing that is true in all successful organizations over time is that for any given person, no amount of genius will make up for being an asshole. Wouldn't Steve Jobs be a counterexample to this? And possibly Bill Gates?

No, actually (at least, IMHO). Jobs organization failed more than once due to him? Remember that Apple (etc) have been troubled at many times through their history with him at the helm :) Gates also eventually left in part because he was doing more harm than good (and has tried to turn himself into a more reasonable person it seems). Compare that to the organization that MS is now under a leader who isn't an asshole?…

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#712

Post by picsao »

quadrangle wrote: post #688
nomel wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, and maybe I’m in the minority when thinking this, but I can’t stand working with polite people. They not only slow down the progress of a project by often causing unneeded busywork, from simply not halting bad ideas, they often slow my learning progress down by not telling me I’m wrong. If you see something stupid, call it out. If I’m doing something stupid or say something wrong, call me out! There’s obv…

Politeness should be low-cost. People going out of their way to make everything super nice are treating everyone as though they have fragile egos. What people really want is to just know technically and precisely what is right and what is wrong so they can improve — leaving out all of the personal crap, positive and negative, except in the ways that people working together have normal human social relationships. So,…

>Politeness should be low-cost. People going out of their way to make everything super nice are treating everyone as though they have fragile egos.

Sir, your brunt attack on the concepts of honor and identity disgusts me. If I had my pistols with me, to silence that dissent in a duel.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#713

Post by jammygit »

Years from now when Linus retires, what will the platinum members of the foundation decide to do with the project? Is it like Apple without Steve Jobs? Him taking time off leads one to wonder about such things

https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#714

Post by mindways »

nomel wrote: post #650
jjeaff wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is anyone really rallied to the cause by Linus himself? I think the product is the only real draw. With the exception of a select few that simply want to work with someone as high profile and legendary as Linus.

Personally, and maybe I’m in the minority when thinking this, but I can’t stand working with polite people. They not only slow down the progress of a project by often causing unneeded busywork, from simply not halting bad ideas, they often slow my learning progress down by not telling me I’m wrong. If you see something stupid, call it out. If I’m doing something stupid or say something wrong, call me out! There’s obv…

> If you see something stupid, call it out. If I’m doing something stupid or say something wrong, call me out!

...but that can be done politely, or not(†). In my experience, being polite doesn't add a high cost to calling someone out, makes the person being called out less upset on average, and generally improves the quality of ensuing answers/discourse (because those involved aren't burning emotional energy on pushing their anger to the background). Both of those latter two things are good.

Sure, there are some people who can take a flaming load of unfiltered criticism to the face and remain unfazed, but assuming that that's the _norm_ doesn't seem especially realistic.

(† = Or in between - "polite" is not a boolean. It's not even a numeric measurement; one can be polite/rude in different sorts of ways.)

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#715

Post by jknz »

A middle ground solution between the former situation and leaving completely is to have someone [with good editor skills] edit your emails before they go.

1. Write your usual technical emails with possibly some knee-jerk personal attacks stuffed in.

2. Click send; which sends the email to the email editor. The editor redacts your email, keeping the technical substance while removing anything personal.

The editor could only remove the problematic stuff, and for instance keep the congrats, personal encouragements and whatever other personal positive remarks. With time, the editor can learn what can of messages make the community thrive, and edit the emails towards this. Some people are naturally good at this; for others, hiring someone to edit emails may end up cheap for the outcomes it may bring your organization.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#716

Post by TangoTrotFox »

jjeaff wrote: post #552
hyperpallium wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who are able to accomplish their goals by rallying others to their cause. Like Linus.

Is anyone really rallied to the cause by Linus himself? I think the product is the only real draw. With the exception of a select few that simply want to work with someone as high profile and legendary as Linus.

Absolutely.

A big part of the problem with many projects, or even companies, is that leadership is too soft and so you end up surrounded by incompetent individuals who either through delusion, or Dunning Kruger, have difficulty assessing their own ability. This results in incredibly inefficient and 'noisy' (as in signal:noise ratio) working environments. 'Hard' leadership gets rid of the slack and is willing to tell people when they're screwing up. This means you're going to be surrounded by the best, and anybody that's not carrying 100% of their weight is going to get removed. Of course you can have a problem there if the leadership is brutal and incompetent, but brutal and competent is a phenomenally desirable mix -- and that really sums up Linus, perhaps to extreme on both sides of the equation.

And in my opinion that really sums up many of the most successful leaders, both past and present. Though of course one huge difference between a Steve Jobs and a Torvalds is that Linus' work and behavior is, like Linux, completely open. Steve Jobs' was able to keep his persona restrained to within corporate avenues, with the rest of the world shown an extremely sculpted and fake image, the depths of contrast between the two only coming out after his death.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#717

Post by mindways »

trop wrote: post #607
tptacek wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not just stubborn, persistent, and unyielding: he's performatively so. In his most notorious attacks, he's clearly playing to an audience. That could be the problem. He clearly can separate the blunt stubbornness ("we do not break userland, period") from the performative rudeness ("SHUT THE FUCK UP MAURO"). (I mean, to be clear: what the fuck do I know? I've never been in the position Linus is in.)

I received a master's degree from an art program in which the (male) professors had a great deal of license to performatively take down students, from the initial admissions interview through two years of group critiques. It wasn't unusual for a professor to reduce students to tears. Graduates of the program brought this culture to their own teaching. Recently I worked at a school whose critiques were set up explicit…

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that "tearing someone's work apart" doesn't require "tearing the person apart / humiliating them"... and I suspect it's the former rather than the latter which is, in the right contexts, useful in learning / improvement.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#718

Post by Walkman »

endtime wrote: post #389
DannyBee wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"in other words : his technical brilliance, in my own opinion, was a far larger boon than the problems stemming from having to deal with his knife-like personality." One thing that is true in all successful organizations over time is that for any given person, no amount of genius will make up for being an asshole. It may take time, etc, but eventually, it ends up a significant net negative for the organization. The s…

> One thing that is true in all successful organizations over time is that for any given person, no amount of genius will make up for being an asshole. Wouldn't Steve Jobs be a counterexample to this? And possibly Bill Gates?

Steve Jobs might have been an even bigger asshole.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#720

Post by rusk »

moosingin3space wrote: post #412
rusk wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entertaining though in fairness. Often he’s saying what we’re thinking. That doesn’t make it right though and it’s ultimately self-defeating.

> Often he's saying what we're thinking This line of thinking is a fantastic way to create a non-inclusive group.

So what? Isn’t that what kernel development is all about? The careful detailed stuff goes in kernel space so that if you want to make a mess of things in your application you can do so without bringing down the whole system. It’s not like that to hurt your feelings or make you feel “excluded”. It’s for the greater good.
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