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AI is slowing down

wheresyoured.at

701–710 of 820 posts

Re: AI is slowing down

#701
post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone should do the analysis of a decade and a half of Nvidia datacenter GPUs from Fermi to Kepler to Maxwell to Pascal to Volta to (Turing) to Ampere to Hopper to Blackwell and generate some hard depreciation numbers. Fiddling around a bit, 16-20% annual depreciation (so 5-6 years total and then any further revenue is bonus goods) it would appear, but that's a fiddle number. But confounding this, K80s and V100s ar…

5-6 years is wildly optimistic for GPUs in an AI data center Try 1-2: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/gpus/datacenter-g...

Sure, according to an unnamed "GenAI principal at Alphabet" of whom "We could not verify the name of the person who describes themselves as 'GenAI principal architect at Alphabet' and therefore we cannot 100% trust their claims."

But let's run with Deep Layer(tm)'s hot take from 2024, GPUs all die in 2 years, no exceptions*. Poor guy just spent $400,000 on a DGX with 8 B200s, each of those B200s generates a piddly ~$3,000 in profit monthly spewing tokens, netting $576K in 2 years, that's a pathetic 20% annual return. Oh no... Won't someone call Michael Burry!

*Never mind the 3-year warranty or any extended service contract, that GPU is D E D and you're S O L.

Re: AI is slowing down

#702

Before you spend 20 minutes reading this article, it's worth understanding that the writer has been posting popular but consistently wrong takes for 2+ years (e.g. https://www.wheresyoured.at/peakai/ from March 2024) arguing that AI is failing, is a waste of money, is bad, will never work, etc.

From the linked article, "Sora is not going to generate movies." How's Sora doing these days?

Re: AI is slowing down

#703
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Those excited about generative AI are either the victim or the perpetrator of a con centered around a technology to ingratiate at the highest cost possible." How else would you read the above statement? He's just preaching to his own choir IMO. My take: like any gold rush, a lot of dumb ideas will get backed and they will all fail. And then we'll keep the ones that worked. SSND. Good luck picking the winners a prior…

SSND?

same shit new day, I'm guessing

Re: AI is slowing down

#704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going back to being a holdout, but it’s nuanced - My theory into why LLMs don’t lead to the colloquial definition of productivity would be something like - if code was never the bottleneck than generating code faster doesn’t result in more meaningful output. Even if you take for granted that AI is as good as the best people say in writing code. And Ive spent a lot of time generating codes, I won’t disagree - Then…

I’m not completely closed to your idea but if code was never the bottleneck why did so many organizations always feel so chronically low on coders? And of course this requires the AI to be no help at all with what is actually the bottleneck.

So, one is, it probably does depend on workflow. Some folks probably are doing things that can be accelerated by AI, and I think if you’re a small team with a good product head and know what you’re doing then AI probably helps a lot.

But what if the problem you’re trying to solve is the altogether too often problem of like getting teams that are dependent on you to upgrade the library they use. And what if the library is a breaking change, and last year they upgraded to the library on your advice and it broke production and now they’re suss and want to accept all changes, and integrating that library change isn’t in their critical path so they’re just not going to spend time on it, even if you submit the MR them. Even if you show them their tests pass after the change.

Importantly to the above, you probably need more devs to do more of the above in parallel. You don’t hire devs to write more code, you hire more devs to carry on the mental load of a broader scope of work. Even in the before times, so much code got stuck at the integration step.

But because all that is hard, instead you go and codegen to fix an obscure bug that sure makes a few customers happy, but no one thought was a limiting factor for paying your company more money.

It’s not that I don’t think AI can help, I think it’s a prerequisite for the job and everyone should use it. It’s more that I think in the grand scheme of things, people will bias towards using it for tasks that aren’t in the critical path - refactors, tech debt, bug smashing, tool building; and I think it could really help devex and that’s good.

But I think people are bad at knowing the difference between “my job feels a bit easier” or “I’m more productive” and “this task had an impact on the bottom line” and when you extrapolate that out to a whole engineering org, that’s where the productivity statistics get lost.

I’ll addd one data point to this is like this thread itself. So many people on AI skepticism threads point to their own subjective experience as evidence we’re not in a bubble, and sort of ignore the entire concept of economics. I’m not saying we’re in 100% in a bubble, but subjective experience isn’t great evidence of it.

And this is just sort of one of the factors, what about the increased cost and mental load of supporting more software? What about junior engineers who feel pressured to ship work but don’t actually learn the software engineering? What about lost context from not intimately understanding your software?

Re: AI is slowing down

#705
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP but Zitron makes clear errors: • He seems to think that the moment Nvidia release new hardware, all existing hardware becomes worthless. It doesn't and there are plenty of tokens being served by old GPUs. This makes all his calculations about how quickly datacenters have to pay off useless. • All his numbers about costs, revenues etc are guesses or attempts to work backwards from off the cuff and frequentl…

> He seems to think that the moment Nvidia release new hardware, all existing hardware becomes worthless. I am the OP and I totally agree with you on this one point. In fact the progress being made by open weights models strongly suggests that some of this hardware has much more of a life. The overarching point he makes about incomplete data centres is that the current offering is running successfully on that very in…

Future demand is unknowable. He might be directionally correct but wrong in magnitude, or right about everything, or wrong about everything. Unfortunately people who call bubbles never make their claims falsifiable or do anything else to build confidence, like take short positions. Zitron attacks the very notion that he might put skin in the game like that as obviously crazy.

I don't know to what extent we can say the current offering is running successfully. Anthropic have had visible capacity constraints for 18 months now with lots of throttling and quota capping going on. Those are good signs that demand does exceed supply at the current price point.

Additionally, Mythos has not launched publicly and one reason seems to be that it's too slow/expensive to make widely available, i.e. is capacity constrained.

But supply/demand is always in equilibrium, in some sense. So you could argue that it's currently balanced, or would be if priced correctly. That tells you little about future demand though.

Re: AI is slowing down

#706
post #578

Lots of dismissive comments ITT, very few tackling the substance of the article. > AI Cannot Afford To Slow Down — It Needs $3 Trillion Or More In Revenue By End Of 2030 To Sustain Its Existence Is this true? With the total 2024 wages being 11.7 trillion USD [0], and nonfarm payrolls totaling 158,000 in the same year [1], it's an order of magnitude higher than my back of the napkin guesses I've made that AI needs to…

There is no substance to the article to tackle. Ed Zitron is a clown that makes seven million dollars a year writing unsubstantiated bullshit on the internet. He has been consistently wrong in every single one of his predictions and will continue predicting the sky is falling, because his content has zero educational value. It is purely a confirmation-bias inducing dopamine hit for the perpetually aggrieved.

To name some of his "predictions", in 2024 he was saying that "things are beginning to collapse":

https://www.wheresyoured.at/subprimeai/

He is extremely vague in his predictions and timelines, and yet still manages to miss.

Re: AI is slowing down

#707
post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm simply saying this: there are third party hosters of Open Weight models like deepseek and they have been doing this for a while. Obviously they are not subsidised, do you disagree? If you agree, they have a way to price it at a point that people wanna pay for it and also they aren't losing money. So there's nothing inherent about inference that makes it too costly or whatever.

> I'm simply saying this: there are third party hosters of Open Weight models like deepseek and they have been doing this for a while. > Obviously they are not subsidised, do you disagree? If you agree, they have a way to price it at a point that people wanna pay for it and also they aren't losing money. > So there's nothing inherent about inference that makes it too costly or whatever. Do we have audited GAAP financ…

Good questions. The post you are replying to is also based on vibes. So how about we make a bet and come back after IPO filings?

But isn't it okay to suggest that random 3rd party hosting companies are ... not losing money? Why?

Re: AI is slowing down

#708
post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, we don't have to speculate as to whether there is some sort of emotional taint on Zitron's thinking; it's shot through. But again, that does nothing to damage or offset _the argument_, which is available for your inspection and consideration, and you, as a thinking person, are handily capable of vetting. :) There is no need to use a heuristic; you have the thing itself.

It absolutely damages the argument. Not sure why you think your question is a gotcha.

Think back. Has there ever been a time when you were both correct and angry?

Would an angry Pythagoras' theorem be wrong, simply by virtue of his anger?

Re: AI is slowing down

#709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the way tone has been intentionally abused, particularly in this industry, I’ll take a few f bombs and the truth.

https://www.wheresyoured.at/peakai/ "I believe that artificial intelligence has three quarters to prove itself before the apocalypse comes, and when it does, it will be that much worse, savaging the revenues of the biggest companies in tech. Once usage drops, so will the remarkable amounts of revenue that have flowed into big tech, and so will acres of data centers sit unused, the cloud equivalent of the massive over…

Prescient

Re: AI is slowing down

#710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm simply saying this: there are third party hosters of Open Weight models like deepseek and they have been doing this for a while. Obviously they are not subsidised, do you disagree? If you agree, they have a way to price it at a point that people wanna pay for it and also they aren't losing money. So there's nothing inherent about inference that makes it too costly or whatever.

Since you couldn't answer, I asked ChatGPT. It said: upfront investment: $3M to $6M. Customers should pay $25k per month. Checks out

I pasted everything you wrote and ChatGPT said

>The "$25k per month" figure is almost certainly the result of ChatGPT making assumptions, not a fact derived from any known business model.

https://chatgpt.com/share/6a28193b-6ec0-8333-a1af-d07e8d89ef...

Your whole calculation is also ridiculous - I think you assumed what revenue per month is required to pay off hardware within a year? Why would I use hardware within a year?

I would suggest consulting with ChatGPT and coming up with a better and more coherent argument.

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