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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

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Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#701

Post by Xelbair »

locknitpicker wrote: post #646
Xelbair wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The US was awarded a unique competitive advantage with WW2, which allowed it to become the world's hegemon. That advantage was: being the only country that wasn't ravaged by war, and that profited for a while by trading with every faction. Some of countries were also severly kneecapped by US betrayal of promises, made by allies - to restore pre-war borders, and handover of them to USSR - that means less competition.…

> There are so many factors involved in that that attributing it to just investment in higher education and GI bill is a gross oversimplification, so is previous post's attribution of the drop afterwards. Your comment sounds like you didn't quite understood the point I made. The whole point was that US benefited greatly from WW2 to reach the position of world's hegemon. But that happened nearly a century ago, and rea…

now how much of it was good investment, and how much of it was just plain advantage due to that?

It is hard to separate those two to verify either - that is my point.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#702

Post by jmspring »

enraged_camel wrote: post #650
rayiner wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. was already the richest country in the world per capita by 1880–even at the peak of the British Empire. Most of its military achievements during the war—building up the world’s largest Navy and airforce from almost nothing within a couple of years—was a product of the industrial economy that already existed before the war. America’s preference for common wisdom over book learning is a strength, not a weaknes…

America's post-war strength was built on unusually strong education. After the war, America had far more schooling overall than other countries. It was one of the many factors that made America a powerhouse in the 50s and 60s. Economic historians Claudia Goldin and Lawrence Katz, who are essentially the gold standard reference here, show that the US became the richest nation precisely because it led the world in mass…

Part of the problem with the way India wants to be seen is those that go to IIT, etc., get into white collar jobs that elevate them well above the norm in India want to ignore the rest of the country. Abject poverty.

The US has severe issues as well, but many countries that want to be seen for their techonological advancement want to hide the less successful parts of their communities.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#703

Post by fragmede »

snowwrestler wrote: post #698
kgdiem wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you in spirit but most people in the US look at college like job training. It’s literally advertised as job training on TV, buses and billboards. Teachers, parents, and media have long been seen as “the way” to get a job. One of the most disappointing things about college was how little people cared about the liberal arts aspect, where humanities courses were an annoying box to tick.

Teenagers do not understand the true value of things. This is not news and not restricted to the field of education. “You’ll need to get a good job someday” is one of the all-purpose lines adults use when harassing them into making better life choices. College makes a person more capable in general, which confers long-term competitiveness during a career. That’s why parents want their kids to go to college. And the g…

> And the great thing is it works even if the kid is just checking the box.

Maybe if you limit it to STEM degrees. There are plenty of people saddled with humanities degrees that haber no hope of paying off the loans taken to get the degree, nevermind a job past barista.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#704

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

expedition32 wrote: post #439
kiba wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America doesn't and shouldn't fight China or Russia alone, so I don't know why we're talking about that. Russia is basically on its way out as a military power. It can't even conquer Ukraine. As for China, you don't fight China alone. What do you think military bases in Japan are for? Anyway, for the world's sake, China shouldn't start a war, but sometime you just can't stop stupid.

China hasn't started a war since the 1970s.

They're doing a good job as belligerents against the Philippines.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#705

Post by berdario »

CMay wrote: post #560
firesteelrain wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false equivalence. The United States was not trying to “conquer” those countries in the territorial sense that Russia attempted with Ukraine. Those conflicts were limited political or counterinsurgency objectives fought under strict constraints, often without public support, and with no intention of annexation. Comparing that to a conventional invasion aimed at seizing and absorbing a neighbor’s territory i…

I'd also add that the Vietnamese LOVE the US.

Despite what the USA did in its invasion of Vietnam, not because of it.

Vietnamese are trying to not forget their history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Remnants_Museum

(I'm not sure how many Vietnamese actually love USA, vs how many don't... I just want to remind that different people in the same society might hold different opinions, and the sentiment is certainly not monolithic)

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#706

Post by yatopifo »

viccis wrote: post #292
cherrycherry98 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing the government provides is free. It's paid for with taxes that are forcefully collected and would have been spent or invested privately otherwise. I'm not someone who's against taxes but it's a myth and propaganda that the government can just magically provide free stuff. I'm ok with the government providing things but I want them to be honest about what the costs are.

>Nothing the government provides is free. Yes it is. "Free" doesn't mean "has no cost paid by anyone" and never has in these discussions. It means "at no cost to the student". Apologies if English isn't your first language.

TANSTAAFL

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#707

Post by thatfrenchguy »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #375
apparent wrote: post #288

The downward "is it worth it" trend over the last 12 years is partly due to the continued upward climb of college tuition. Some schools are now at $100,000/yr for tuition, room, and board. In order for this to be "worth the cost" they would have to have a strongly positive expected value in terms of future earnings. And a positive EV isn't sufficient. It would also need to have a very low chance of negative EV. Other…

There's a simple and effective escape hatch: study abroad. Europe, Australia, South America, Canada even. Some countries are more affordable than others but the most expensive (by far) option is staying in the US. From the point of view of developing your brain, leaving your country is a free education in itself. There is also the effect of embedding yourself in a network of expats made up of the best and brightest f…

> There's a simple and effective escape hatch: study abroad. Europe, Australia, South America, Canada even. Some countries are more affordable than others but the most expensive (by far) option is staying in the US.

I mean, good luck finding a job in the US when your degree is not from the us (or maybe Canada). Most industries don't hire folks with overseas degrees.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#708

Post by mopsi »

somenameforme wrote: post #558
tim333 wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree on the Russia Ukraine motivations. Ukraine is not part of NATO and was not going to become part of NATO. There were already two NATO countries bordering Russia near Moscow and St P if NATO had wanted to invade which they had no thoughts of doing. Russia lies constantly on this stuff. I think they basically regarded Ukraine their land as part of the Russian empire they were restoring.

It's not about immediate intentions, but about strategic options. Imagine Russia decided to form a military alliance with Mexico with the expected intention of deploying weapons on the Mexican border. If Mexico agreed to this, it would take approximately 0 seconds before the US invaded them under some whimsical pretext (drug gangs probably) and overthrew their government to prevent this. In fact this is, more or less…

  >  Imagine Russia decided to form a military alliance with Mexico with the expected intention of deploying weapons on the Mexican border.
It would be a very foolish idea, because it's no longer the Napoleonic era. Concentrating your forces close to adversary's border makes them easy targets for destruction by long-range artillery and airstrikes. The Finnish chief of defence forces recently made the same remark when the Russians moved their weapons closer to Finland for intimidation: "It only makes them easier for us to destroy."

  > In fact this is, more or less, what the Cuban Missile Crisis was
Not at all. The Cuban missile crisis was only about nuclear missiles. The USSR continued to provide a large number of conventional weapons to Cuba, including submarines and fighter jets, until it collapsed in 1991, without any of your invasion fantasies coming true.

See this photo: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/11312641

It is a Soviet-built MIG-23 fighter jet carrying Cuban insignia. MIG-23 first flew 5 years after the missile crisis and the first batch was delivered to Cuba in 1978.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#709

Post by crossbody »

immibis wrote: post #508
stefs wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's true that it was possible to support a family on a single unskilled laborer income in the '50s, their standard of living was far below anything most people would accept today.

Depends how you measure, surely. They had less TVs and computers and prepackaged food, the same amount of sunlight, and more freedom (as measured by average income to rent ratio).

Not true, the share of income going to living necessities has steadily dropped. Even not true for sunlight - the air quality was so much worse that you couldn't see much of the sun anyway

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#710

Post by yatopifo »

jpalawaga wrote: post #354
stack_framer wrote: post #115

I dropped out after my university added various "studies" courses to the required list. I took just one such course—gender studies—which was utterly abysmal. There was zero tolerance for debating ideas or considering opposing viewpoints. You either assimilated with the group think, or you were castigated for your heresy. It was indoctrination, not education.

I will give you an upvote to offset the negative expressions. I've heard of at least one instance at a very well known Bay Area university in such a class. From what was described to me, and I trust this person to not misrepresent their experience, was that they were essentially told 'hi, cis white male, sit down and don't say a damn thing, this isn't your place to talk'. And then go on to essentially present a curri…

Is it still a thing in the US though? There was a bit of that in Canada briefly but then everyone saw the ridiculousness of the radical approach in 2023. Universities have been distancing themselves from such groups since then.
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