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Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

ziglang.org

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Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#701

Post by strix_varius »

epolanski wrote: post #679
dreamcompiler wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My old rule about the difference between coding and software engineering: For coding, "it seems to work for me" is good enough. For software engineering, it's not. My new rule: For coding, you can use AI to write your code. For software engineering, you can't.

I absolutely don't care about how people generate code, but they are responsible for every single line they push for review or merge. That's my policy in each of my clients and it works fine, if AI makes something simpler/faster, good for the author, but there's 0, none, excuses for pushing slop or code you haven't reviewed and tested yourself thoroughly. If somebody thinks they can offset not just authoring or editi…

Totally agree. For me, the hard part has been figuring out the distinction with junior engineers... Is this poorly thought out, inefficient solution that is 3x as long as necessary due to AI, or inexperience?

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#702

Post by latexr »

simianwords wrote: post #691
pyrale wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a purity spiral that organizations can enter when they start doing this You are the one summoning that spiral by making a cheap gotcha wrt codeberg using Paypal. The project apparently could and did move because the swith from github to codeberg wasn't that big of an impact, and because, while the new forge is not perfect, they feel the association is less severe. There is no "purity spiral" in that, just…

As I was reading your reply I was half convinced that it was not purity spiral but by the end, even you admit it’s an ethics thing so yeah it is pretty much purity spiral in place. Next they will leave the USA so that they won’t be associated with Trump.

Practicality matters. For example, even if you choose not to harm other living things, you cannot avoid stepping on and killing the occasional insect. Theoretically you might be able to do it, but you’ll stop having a life. But you can still do much in line with your beliefs, such as not killing animals for food.

If GitHub were the sole game in town, maybe (probably) they wouldn’t have switched. But it isn’t, and they found something which in their view is an acceptable replacement and less worse. So yeah, maybe they don’t ethically agree with everyone on every thing up the chain, but they apparently agree with them more. That matters. You take a stand where you are able to.

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#703

Post by stocksinsmocks »

brodo wrote: post #465
quirino wrote: post #35

> As a bonus, we look forward to fewer violations (exhibit A, B, C) of our strict no LLM / no AI policy, Hilarious how the offender on "exhibit A" [1] is the same one from the other post that made the frontpage a couple of days ago [2]. [1] https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/25974 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46039274

Check out this dude: https://github.com/GhostKellz?tab=repositories He's got like 50 repos with vibe-coded, non-working Zig and Rust projects. And he clearly manages to confuse people with it: https://github.com/GhostKellz/zquic/issues/2

I don’t think this is uncommon. At one point Lemmy was a project with thousands of stars and literally no working code until finally someone other than the owner adopted it and merged in a usable product.

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#704

Post by Archit3ch »

mzajc wrote: post #580
sundarurfriend wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More context/discussion on this: https://discourse.julialang.org/t/ai-generated-enhancements-... (Honestly, that's a lot more patience than I'd be able to give what are mostly AI-generated replies, so kudos to these folk.)

function estimate_method_targets(func_name::Symbol, types::Tuple) # Conservative estimate # In a real implementation, we'd query the method table return 2 # Assume multiple possibilities end Hilarious. Was this model trained on XKCD [0] by any chance? [0]: https://xkcd.com/221/

Among all the other problems with this... They describe [1] their contributions as "steering the AI" and "keeping it honest", which evidently they did not.

[1] https://discourse.julialang.org/t/ai-generated-enhancements-...

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#705

Post by latexr »

aadishv wrote: post #419
picafrost wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a weird take-away from the post, where the only time ICE is mentioned is > Putting aside GitHub’s relationship with ICE, and the rest of the article provides technical reasons.

I feel like that's the whole point of the OP. I agree with the overall post but mentioning the ICE relationship seems to detract from the main point. "I hate GitHub because X Y and Z features are bad" is a good reason to move away; "I hate GitHub because one of their thousands of enterprise customers does not align with my political views" is not, in my opinion. For the record, I do not support ICE

It does signal/imply that even if GitHub fixed every technical grievance tomorrow, Zig might still not come back.

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#706

Post by simianwords »

latexr wrote: post #702
simianwords wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I was reading your reply I was half convinced that it was not purity spiral but by the end, even you admit it’s an ethics thing so yeah it is pretty much purity spiral in place. Next they will leave the USA so that they won’t be associated with Trump.

Practicality matters. For example, even if you choose not to harm other living things, you cannot avoid stepping on and killing the occasional insect. Theoretically you might be able to do it, but you’ll stop having a life. But you can still do much in line with your beliefs, such as not killing animals for food. If GitHub were the sole game in town, maybe (probably) they wouldn’t have switched. But it isn’t, and the…

Yeah but would you stop using AWS because of the same reason?

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#707

Post by oofbey »

MildlySerious wrote: post #579
aadishv wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like that's the whole point of the OP. I agree with the overall post but mentioning the ICE relationship seems to detract from the main point. "I hate GitHub because X Y and Z features are bad" is a good reason to move away; "I hate GitHub because one of their thousands of enterprise customers does not align with my political views" is not, in my opinion. For the record, I do not support ICE

People protesting ICE do not do so out of political concern, but humanitarian concern. This seems like a minor nitpick as those two are intimately tangled up, but it matters to make the distinction. Standing up for others is not petty or self-serving and that's exactly what this sort of conflation can falsely imply.

Politics in the US is so extremely binarized these days that I think it’s hard to assign motive for political issues beyond “my friends say that our team feels this way.” Which I would argue is much more political than anything fundamental.

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#708

Post by 0x000xca0xfe »

mmaunder wrote: post #208

They've abandoned GitHub for Codeberg because GitHub has ICE as a customer. Codeberg uses Paypal which is a member of the ICE "Virtual Global Taskforce". https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/top-story-industry-partner... There is a purity spiral that organizations can enter when they start doing this, which ends up with you shoving yourself into a cold dark corner of the internet and still not being completely detached…

Sounds great because Zig folks do seem to have a history with rejecting existing tooling for fussy reasons and building their own (really good) stuff.

If this forces them to rethink and build a better GitHub, can't wait.

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#709

Post by bytehowl »

homebrewer wrote: post #228
nromiun wrote: post #139

So much vague outrage over nothing. That CI system created by so called monkeys is the one of the best free CI service in the world. Not everyone has the millions of dollars like Zig Foundation to create their own CI servers. After that they appreciate GitHub Sponsors, but say it is now a complete liability just because a project leader left. What are the actual changes? Any new rule? But no, it is now a "liability"…

The only good thing about it is their very generous limits for "open source" projects (it doesn't even have to be free software AFAIK, just the source has to be visible to everyone). The CI service itself is an absolute trash fire caused by the usual Microsoft NIH, and if they have financial means not to deal with it anymore, I see no reason for them to waste their limited development time on dealing with it.

>it doesn't even have to be free software AFAIK, just the source has to be visible to everyone

With the implication that MS is free to harvest it for LLM training?

Re: Migrating the main Zig repository from GitHub to Codeberg

#710

Post by alexrp »

wg0 wrote: post #269

If voiced and channeled properly, I see very little chance of Microsoft and Github wouldn't prioritize fixes for a critical open source project. Yes issues have been filed but more could be done back channel. Personally - I think GitHub is a cultural artifact now. Of the entire planet. Hackers and curious minds from Japan to Alaska and everything in-between flock to GitHub.

As I pointed out in a different comment, even IBM have to maintain a GitHub Actions runner fork with s390x support because upstream just cannot even be bothered to accept the relevant patches: https://github.com/uweigand/runner

If IBM cannot get Microsoft to work with them on something so small but impactful, there's no chance we can.

> Personally - I think GitHub is a cultural artifact now. Of the entire planet. Hackers and curious minds from Japan to Alaska and everything in-between flock to GitHub.

And it's in the hands of a for-profit company pushing LLM nonsense. That should be alarming! Let's instead encourage people to use platforms managed by non-profits.

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