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End of Japanese community

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Re: End of Japanese community

#701

Post by jahsome »

crazygringo wrote: post #31
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

Why? It seems like someone who has no awareness of the problem, who wants to learn more about the problem, and the fastest way for both parties is over the phone ASAP rather than through a bunch of emails. When software goes wrong, you need as much information as possible to figure it how to fix it.

> the fastest way for both parties is over the phone ASAP rather than through a bunch of emails

I feel that's subjective. Personally, I both receive and distribute information much more efficiently via written text.

Text also has the added bonus of being redistributable which is extremely valuable in collaborative scenarios.

Re: End of Japanese community

#702

Post by StarGrit »

crazygringo wrote: post #663
StarGrit wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're never seen it used to be helpful, I don't know that to tell you. I have, all the time, and it seems entirely normal and unremarkable. I suspect that you didn't understand the subtext of the conversation. If you aren't used to dealing with it, you will take the comment on face value, if you are like me that had to deal with it most of my life, you won't. > That saddens me. It seems like you've worked at so…

> I suspect that you didn't understand the subtext of the conversation. I suspect you're inventing a subtext that simply isn't there. > I actually prefer these environments, I can assume everyone around me is a snake. Again, I'm really sorry. That's a very, very sad thing. > I am sure other people have explained this to you. However it is extremely simple. This process you're describing doesn't make any sense. People…

> I suspect you're inventing a subtext that simply isn't there.

No I am not. I don't appreciate being gas-lite about this.

How this office politik is used is covered in blogs, covered on YouTube. My parents, friends and colleagues are aware of it. Maybe you need to open your eyes.

> Again, I'm really sorry. That's a very, very sad thing.

Stop apologising, I find it patronising and insincere, even if that isn't your intention.

BTW. I've done the best work under those circumstances, I got paid a lot and it made me HTFU, which helps with personal growth.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/HTFU

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifragile_(book)

> This process you're describing doesn't make any sense.

It makes perfect sense. You are assuming they care if the get a small amount of negative press about it. They don't.

This will be forgotten about within a week, even by most people commenting even here.

> And I'm sorry. If you think an offer to delve into a complaint over the phone to get more information is a cynical ploy, I really am sorry. It seems like there's nothing that could convince you someone is really trying to help, because of the lens you're choosing to interpret everything through. And because of the lens you've chosen, it seems self-reinforcing, which makes it extra-sad.

Firstly. Speaking to me like this is quite honestly patronising. I am quite capable of doing value free analysis.

Secondly, The sort of language people are complaining about almost always been used as a way to deflect valid criticism back on person making the critique. Almost always for disingenuous reasons. Feigning concern about my cynicism doesn't change that fact.

In any event I am tired of being patronised by you.

Re: End of Japanese community

#705

Post by jahsome »

Aardwolf wrote: post #243
jahsome wrote: post #10

I'm not really able to understand the finer details but I think I picked up enough to get the broad strokes. Really though, all I needed to see was the phrase "jump on a quick call" to form an irrationally strong opinion. That phrase instantly warms my entire body with rage.

It's actually the "We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with" which ignores the whole original post that did it for me.

I always read "call?" as, "I won't bother trying to understand what you took the time to present, can you craft a tailored summary for me, then intepret my own ramblings and figure our how to apply that to what you are saying?"

Re: End of Japanese community

#706

Post by embedding-shape »

jameslk wrote: post #685
sameerds wrote: post #654

> Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. That has the same vibes as a customer support helpline that has no intention to actually help.

It may be viewed that way, but it’s also useful to empathize with someone and get more detail/nuance that can’t be conveyed simply over text. Especially when someone is not happy. I usually do the same thing when the medium is text and someone is not happy. Tone conveys a lot of useful information. Even better if you can see a person and their body language. I don’t think the cynical view of the staff person’s intent…

> It may be viewed that way, but it’s also useful to empathize with someone and get more detail/nuance that can’t be conveyed simply over text. Especially when someone is not happy.

It can be, but maybe not when you're not actually replying to anything the other person wrote. The person who experienced the issues and chose to leave made a pretty clear list of "here is the exact reasons the bot is unbearable for us". This person who opened up the conversation is doing so via text, at least providing some sort of answer initially via the same channel before trying to get them to jump into a private call could have maybe came across a bit more empathic and collaborative.

Re: End of Japanese community

#707

Post by skywhopper »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #421
apexalpha wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from the Netherlands I read absolutely 0 condescending or patronising behaviour in this. It just looks like someone trying to get in contact and help out. I could've written this myself, genuinely trying to help.

As a native English speaker, I don't see it as condescending either. Yes it's a bit "corporate" in tone, but that is not uncommon at all in large human organisations (not just for-profit corporations but also government, NGOs, political orgs, etc). Also the reality is that "hopping on a call" can often help to resolve problems that would otherwise devolve into months of bikeshedding on mailing lists. Which is often e…

As an English speaker, I 100% disagree. This does not come across as someone wanting to understand or to help. It’s someone wanting to avoid a scene. Private phone calls are not an appropriate way to deal with community issues like this. In other threads on the site (https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/forums/contributors/717387...) it’s clear this change has received massive pushback for months since it was announced, and community members specifically called out the issues enumerated in the OP as potential problems. So the responder already knows exactly what is wrong. No clarification is necessary.

Re: End of Japanese community

#708

Post by nitwit005 »

meindnoch wrote: post #288
nozilla wrote: post #252

> Hi Marsf, > I'm sorry for how you and the Japanese community feel about the MT workflow that we just recently introduced. Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with. > My timezone is UTC+7, so it should be easier for us to set up time. Let me know how that sound! What a horribly condescending and patronising resp…

I don't understand people like this. No, I don't want to "hop on a call", I've already written down everything. Can you not read?

There have been a ton of complaints on HackerNews about companies never letting them talk to a real person. Here's a company offering up a real person, and apparently that's still bad somehow. You can always just say "no" to an offer to talk.

Re: End of Japanese community

#709

Post by jahsome »

ChadNauseam wrote: post #225
roncesvalles wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"quick call?" in corporatespeak means "I believe our disagreement to be a minor misunderstanding that can be clarified in a few minutes of conversation" In a company you should never ever "quick call" someone (especially on a group forum) who has presented a genuine list of grievances against whatever you're doing, unless you're subtly trying to pull rank to override those grievances.

He didn't say "quick call". Here is what he said: > Would you be interested to hop on a call with us to talk about this further? We want to make sure we trully understand what you're struggling with.

You're right. I misquoted, and that was an error on my part. While I regret the error, I don't feel the word "quick" really changes the sentiment too much. It certainly doesn't change my visceral response.

Re: End of Japanese community

#710

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

ninetyninenine wrote: post #605
kstenerud wrote: post #369

I know that everyone has already given their opinions about what kinds of people are involved and their motivations, but this is really about two fallible humans, one listing grievances and another asking to open a communication channel. That's it. Anything else you read into this is going to be fraught with your own coloring based on a hundred words written in text (a notoriously difficult medium to establish emotio…

Why do humans pretend this is the most sensible way to go. You know on HN even with all these “polite” rules to make everything civil I still see shit that really just bends and goes around the rules. Example comments: “I’m baffled at how someone can think this way.” The tone is always performatively mild, but the intent is identical to “you’re an idiot.” Except they wrap it in this passive-aggressive intellectual co…

This is sure an opinion.
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