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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#701
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"medium is the message" That brought back grad school memories. The Internet is an excellent example of this. We're watching -- in real-time -- the medium challenge society (at all levels and across boundaries). The Internet is still an infant; yet look at its impact.

Really? The internet looks old. A teenager in the 90s, aged fast in the 2000s, got a family in 2010s and now is seeking to police everyone through its retirement.

It is starting to even have a shape. People just stopped giving up on service formats (how are you supposed to read instant messages again?) all the time because they like some other one better.

Society has mostly just discovered it exists.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#702

I’m going to get flamed for this but at this point the closest we’re getting to counter culture is the exact opposite… “Trads”. Young people with super traditional values doing exactly the opposite of most of what you just listed. No one would seriously suggest the trendiest most mainstream supported or glorified lifestyles (van life, queerness, gig work) are counter culture…that IS the culture; there’s very little c…

I don’t think trads are counter culture because they are the vast, vast majority outside of major cities anyways. It’s about as normative as you can get.

How often do they see themselves represented positively in TV and movies?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#703
post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think a sense of sameness pervades the creative world then you must be looking at a woefully tiny portion of the creative world. It has never been easier to be weird nor easier to find weirdness. Covered in the 14: "Alternative voices exist-in fact, they are everywhere--but are rarely heard, and their cultural impact is negligible."

Not at all. The weird stuff is well heard and has a large cultural impact. You'll have no problem finding countless examples of weird things that have been viewed and interacted with by hundreds of thousands or even millions of people. Compare that to say a punk band in the 80s that may have only had a few thousand people ever see it perform, or even the entire hippie movement which was only about half a million peop…

You seem to be trying to stand on a knife's edge between saying counterculture is not mainstream, counterculture has mainstream impact.

> Compare that to say a punk band in the 80s that may have only had a few thousand people ever see it perform

Or the Velvet Underground that sold only a few thousand records but "everyone who bought one went out and started a band."

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

"I don't think anyone will look back with fondness or positivity towards a bunch of drug-pushing, mentally stunted adulterous freeloaders that disrespect hard working people, people putting their lives on the line for their country, people devoted to their families, and the nation that allows them the freedom to exist in the first place--while jerking themselves into a froth over who's the edgiest edge lord."

Even as someone who favours liberal drug laws at this point, the social upheaval of the late '60s had objectively horrific consequences for the poor in particular. The massive drug epidemic that to this day kills more Americans than the entire Vietnam War every year, the unprecedented doubling of murder rates overall in nearly every Western country from 1965-1975, and collapse of the family unit seem like more tangible downsides than a small number of what you describe as edgelords jerking themselves into a froth on a forum read by other edgelords.

Nearly every major social issue of the late 20th century exploded as a direct result of hippie culture bringing drugs and hostility towards the family and social institutions into the mainstream. People often think of rising crime as the result of the 1980s crack "epidemic," but the explosion in murder rates occurred almost entirely from 1966-1975 and actually grew at a slower pace up to 1990 (outside the UK): https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/uRI8Y/1/ The US murder rate in 1974 was exactly the same as it was at the peak of the "Crack epidemic" in 1990, and more than double the rate it was in 1964.

You can still argue the benefits outweighed the costs, but it's simply ignorant to pretend 1960s counterculture was some uniformly benevolent movement for peace and love, any more than the movement you identify with 4chan is merely a benevolent movement for "national pride" or "family values."

How 4chan specifically got designated the "counterculture" in this thread is questionable, but so is the inability to look beyond the status-quo, contemporary perspective of major media, academia and corporations.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

The central idea of 4chan is that it is liberal. Not liberal in the perverted US-American re-definition of the word. Liberal as in freedom. Anyone can express their opinion freely on 4chan and that includes racists.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought.

Honestly, I think you're making the mistake of confusing your subjective view with "objectivity." Like saying your opinions and preferences are "objectively" the right ones.

Also, you appear to be describing your side in the most charitable way you can, those you oppose in the least charitable way, and unsurprisingly finding those you oppose wanting.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>BLM >LGBT >counter culture Endlessly supported by literally every news outlet, major tech company, big 5 sports league, F1000, university, and at least half of the political class. You’re not counter to any major institution, lmao. You’re not the resistance

Changing the colour of your logo on a certain date is not really "supporting". Corps gonna corp and if changing the logo and publishing some nice post brings more money, they'll do it. (While donating to Republicans at the same time)

Imagine if F500 companies displayed the Christian cross to the extent they did the Pride colors, for one month. Would that signal "support" for Christianity?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

honestly. how many months of rent was that boat? You are privileged ag

It seems you are out of touch with the liveaboard boat market. It's totally feasible to pick up a boat suitable for coastal cruising for a couple of people for $2,000. Budget another $2,000 for upgrades and you're good to go.

Having $4k to drop on a project is incredibly privileged.

Half of Americans don't have that in their account.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#710

I kind of think we have a fragmentary counterculture going against prevailing culture in certain aspects only. Just as hippie counterculture was obviously mostly in american college-educated middle class students and black panthers were obviously primarily black. We have traditional catholics in america who are going against the pope's relatively progressive positions on gay people. We have aggressive de-institutiona…

> We have aggressive de-institutionalize-the-cops people

These people are not counterculture, even if they are a minority, because they control the culture industry.

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