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Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

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Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#701

Post by mavu »

andai wrote: post #639
joe_the_user wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this sort of question is being argued with youtube-dl and we can see where it goes. The entertainment industry argues the purpose of youtube-dl is to pirate content. Youtube-dl argues that there are in fact many legitimate uses for it and this argument has so far prevailed. In the case of WhatsApp, the app has many legitimate uses, notably speech, which is often protected as a right. In the case of Tornado Ca…

Many countries have strong privacy protections. Why should the same not apply to transactions?

Because many countries do not like money laundering and tax evasion.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#702

Post by closeparen »

yawnxyz wrote: post #274
dcolkitt wrote: post #260

A lot of the apologists for this are making arguments along the lines of "being decentralized doesn't make you exempt from the rules" or "imagine if a bank laundered this much money". The problem is it doesn't make sense to treat protocols like companies. And it definitely doesn't make sense to treat protocol devs as if they were the executives of those companies. The CEO of a bank and the lead dev of a protocol have…

Isn't this kind of like the dev of SMTP getting arrested because two people committed a crime by communicating through email?

Communication providers are not required to obtain licenses and mitigate illegal content in the same way that money service businesses are required to mitigate money laundering. Some people think they should be! I don't agree. But it is a thing governments could do.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#704

Post by enlyth »

unboxingelf wrote: post #691
enlyth wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can, but realistically, it has probably been used almost exclusively for either laundering money or concealing the source of money used to purchase illegal goods. I can think of pretty much no cases where you would _need_ to convert your money to cryptocurrency, then conceal where it came from using a mixer, and then use it for something legal. I'm not advocating for the developer to be prosecuted, I'm just sa…

I can think of pretty much no cases where you would _need_ to convert your money to cryptocurrency, then conceal where it came from using a mixer, and then use it for something legal. See my other comment for a concrete, legal use case: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32443842

Why would you need a mixer? If you want to hide it from your friends just send it to a new address and then buy with that address. Who can prove that new address is yours?

Also if your friends then regularly snoop and trace every single one of your transactions so they can laugh at you for your purchases, I wouldn't consider those to be your friends.

I mean fair enough, you have contrived a legal example. Yes, I admit it does have valid use cases, I just don't think they're very common at all.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#705

Post by pksebben »

colechristensen wrote: post #683
phyalow wrote: post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starting a gun manufacturing company and expecting not to get charged with a crime is a bit absurd. Pretending that it's totally fine because it's "for hunting" not "murder" because guns are special... is likewise absurd.

Having a tool to shoot someone is a right written into the US constitution. There are a variety of circumstances where you are within your rights to use this deadly force. Tools to hide the source or destination of funds, i.e. to launder money, are not legal anywhere and explicitly illegal in various ways. Providing them as a service to others is explicitly illegal. Building, selling, owning, and using a gun are all…

"legal" != "legitimate". the Iraq war was legal. banks turning a profit off the 08 crash was legal. slavery was legal. The constitution was written in the dark ages by folks that thought slavery was A-OK and it's a dead document. your government (ours,I guess, if you wanted to get pedantic) sucks, dude.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#706

Post by closeparen »

jiggawatts wrote: post #295
yawnxyz wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this kind of like the dev of SMTP getting arrested because two people committed a crime by communicating through email?

Or arresting Ron Rivest, Adi Shamir, or Leonard Adleman for helping criminals hide their communications from law enforcement.

The difference is lawmakers have regulated money service businesses and have not regulated cryptography. If they had regulated cryptography, then yes making RSA available to the public could be a crime.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#707

Post by [deleted] »

yuan43 wrote: post #531

The effect of all of this nonsense will to drive developers into pseudonymity. It won't solve the "problem" of developers building privacy tools. It won't stop experimentation with shitcoins. But it will eliminate the phenomenon of the Buterin-style project lead and "core developer". The bullseye has been painted. And now those who have reaped the benefits of fame will come to know why Satoshi concluded that it was a…

[deleted]

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#708

Post by bendbro »

tokai wrote: post #138
fleddr wrote: post #104

How many people listed in the Panama papers have been arrested? Their assets seized? Fines? Zero. London's "the city" is pretty much one giant laundering operation for Saudi and Russian dirty money. Money laundering, monetary privacy, wealth obfuscation is perfectly fine. It only becomes an issue when it becomes accessible to us simple minded folks too. The urgency to stop this tech really tells the tale. Or in other…

Did you look it up or are you just spouting what ever you can dream up to fit your argument? Lots of people all over the world have been arrested based on the panama papers.

May I ask your nationality, party preference, any controversial political positions you hold and any mental health conditions you have? I'd like to validate my stereotypes.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#709

Post by unboxingelf »

enlyth wrote: post #704
unboxingelf wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can think of pretty much no cases where you would _need_ to convert your money to cryptocurrency, then conceal where it came from using a mixer, and then use it for something legal. See my other comment for a concrete, legal use case: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32443842

Why would you need a mixer? If you want to hide it from your friends just send it to a new address and then buy with that address. Who can prove that new address is yours? Also if your friends then regularly snoop and trace every single one of your transactions so they can laugh at you for your purchases, I wouldn't consider those to be your friends. I mean fair enough, you have contrived a legal example. Yes, I admi…

  Why would you need a mixer? If you want to hide it from your friends just send it to a new address and then buy with that address.
Let’s continue the example. Imagine you use your shiny new NFT as your twitter avatar. Now anyone can see the wallet holding that NFT received funds from wallet x. Wallet x is your main wallet.

Privacy is not bad.

Re: Arrest of suspected developer of Tornado Cash

#710

Post by pksebben »

notch656a wrote: post #689
alangibson wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laughable. Nearly 30 years later someone shot up a school with an AR-15. Yep, that government gun grab is riiight around the corner

Gun ownership has a long-term downward trend. Part of this is non-government factors like change in population from rural to urban, changing demographics, occupations, etc. But we can't rule out that part of this drop may be contributed by the additional barriers placed, such as great expansion of who is a felon, expansion of domestic violence firearm restrictions including some local agencies charging someone every…

"general downward trend" is light years away from "gun grab". they did the latter in Australia and I hear it was pretty great.

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/australi...

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