I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears • Hacker News Board

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#701

Post by DiggyJohnson » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:33 AM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #484

rayiner wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could you provide an example of that claim? Usually the SAT is considered discriminatory because the way the testing is done favors wealthy, well-educated people, and gives negative results for equally talented people who lack those advantages. The alternatives, such as essays, are even more highly correlated with wealth: https://cepa.stanford.edu/content/essay-content-strongly-rel... As to predicting outcomes, tha…

> LSAT is highly predictive of bar exam performance. Students who score less than 150 (on a 120-180 scale) are virtually guaranteed to fail the bar. Source? Or do you mean "taking LSAT at the same time as taking the bar for fun"? Because LSAT is typically done before you enter law school, while you take the bar after you get out.

I don’t have the source, but when I checked this out it captures LSAT performance and Bar Exam outcome at their normal milestones.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#702

Post by chaps » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:34 AM UTC

crackercrews wrote: post #664

chaps wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, nah. Consider this: if the schools weren't dependent on the test scores, then they could use that same energy-for-testing to teach their students methods for improving their SAT scores. I genuinely doubt they'll switch energy, but the fact remains that the requirement to game a test-well-or-lose-funding system by necessity removes education opportunity for students in order to focus on the tests over education, e…

I don't understand what you are trying to argue. Your first GGP comment talks about school testing and then ends with a conclusion about the SAT. That is not a school test. It is a student test. Your immediate parent comment indicates that if school testing were eliminated then students would improve their SAT scores. I agree with that. But it is beside the point. This thread is about whether the SAT should be elimin…

My point was about this: "Are most kids from lower socio-economic backgrounds still clueless about the college admissions process, the difference between colleges, and scholarships." My original post was saying that kids from lower socio-economic backgrounds aren't as aware of these processes, largely because of the broken incentive systems around testing.

So, I'm opposed to standardized tests, in general, as a strong measure for capability because of their tendency to force the focus of schools on testing over education and in doing so, deep and localized problems are reinforced. I gave the example of my own school, because the school barely touched on the SAT since the focus was, by necessity, focused on the ACT. The SAT was an afterthought. For the teachers, it was a legitimate existential crisis if the ACT wasn't taught well, while the SAT was effectively irrelevant to them.

A large body of students don't know how important the SAT is, nor whether or how they should push themselves to test well -- we weren't taught that because of a shift in priorities. In some ways, both tests were expressed as on the same level of importance, despite the ACT not mattering in the slightest to the future of the individual student, leading to confusion by students about what is actually important.

For schools that the SAT isn't an afterthought, the SAT might make sense, but in doing so, we are culturally prioritizing the reinforcement of already-strong communities while simultaneously continuing to weaken already weak communities.

In other words, a proxy besides the SAT should be sought after, at least while we have so many broken systems and wildly different implementations of incentive systems in-place. I don't know what that proxy is.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#703

Post by fakethenews2022 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:35 AM UTC

fakethenews2022 wrote: post #546

beloch wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I was told as a grad student that I've never forgotten is, "Nobody has ever won a Nobel prize for having happy students". At the time, I was struggling to keep up with the marking demands of a new (i.e. This was the first year it was taught) course I was TA'ing. I had around a hundred students and each one was generating 10-20 pages of handwritten lab reports per week. Student writing varied from human type…

UC Berkeley CS has teaching professors who no longer do research and solely teach. They introduced this well after I graduated but I did take classes with some professors who became teaching professors. They were research professors when I took them. I found the experienced professors competent even if some were uninspired. On the other hand, I generally had negative experiences with the graduate assistants and new p…

My worst class by far was taught by a visiting professor who just did not give a damn and basically read from a textbook. He was gone after a semester. I suspect it was partly due to his horrid student reviews.

I also had a math class taught by a well meaning fresh professor. It was on the fast Fourier transform and related techniques leading to it. Great topic choice but very awkwardly and confusingly taught. It is actually hugely relevant to video compression and decompression.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#704

Post by randomdata » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:35 AM UTC

dantheman wrote: post #198

com2kid wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is a country that loves the free market country, yet no one seems to be talking about supply and demand to fix college prices. Double the number of large quality state universities. Re-index public university tuition to what they were in 2000 + inflation. Mandate that funding comes with X number increase in tenured professors. Re-instate public funding for state universities to what it was in 2000 + inflation…

The problem is student loans, if the students don't have the money the college will adapt to be less expensive.

The bigger problem is that post-secondary schooling hasn't produced higher incomes to offset the cost. Adjusted for inflation, incomes are the same now as they were before anyone went to these schools (i.e. incomes are stagnant). Even if tuitions were affordable without debt, there would still be no economic return on investment. Even if it were free, the opportunity cost of your time still leaves you net negative. Unless its your hobby and you are accepting of the cost for the trade in enjoyment, why bother?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#705

Post by pokepim » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:36 AM UTC

Forgeties79 wrote: post #518

beloch wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I was told as a grad student that I've never forgotten is, "Nobody has ever won a Nobel prize for having happy students". At the time, I was struggling to keep up with the marking demands of a new (i.e. This was the first year it was taught) course I was TA'ing. I had around a hundred students and each one was generating 10-20 pages of handwritten lab reports per week. Student writing varied from human type…

It is so refreshing to see this take. I was on a path to be a history Ph.D candidate - I wanted to teach, and archive diving is basically my own personal drug. The problem is it’s “publish or perish,” as we all know. My higher priority, i.e. teaching, was essentially an obstacle. You know how I know that? My own advisor and other department members told me not to get my doctorate (after writing a 60 page thesis mind…

History PhD candidate at Hacker News? I’m really curious, do you like programming/tech as a hobby or did you take another path in the end?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#706

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:36 AM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #319

wolverine876 wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "less adult"? Do you think people were less adult before we had universal eduction? Are there benefits to their adulthood from it?

My point is that you claim that college prepares people to be adults “in every way”, so I wonder in what way today’s college graduates are more prepared to be adults than, say, overwhelming majority of adults were in 1930s, who didn’t have any college experience.

> My point is that you claim that college prepares people to be adults “in every way”, so I wonder in what way today’s college graduates are more prepared to be adults than, say, overwhelming majority of adults were in 1930s, who didn’t have any college experience.

Yes, generally speaking. And they were better prepared than people from the 1840s, who mostly were illiterate (no universal education), lost most of their kids at a young age, etc. If you spend zero years preparing for something and I spend four (or 12 and 16 years), I'm going to be better prepared most likely. There are diminishing marginal returns at some point, but college is qualitatively very different than high school.

This question comes up many times, as if it's a personal insult to people without college degrees. Let's imagine it does insult them (which I don't think it does); should we reject all progress for ourselves because others don't have access to it and might be offended? You have access to the Interet and I don't - are you saying you are better than me? The Internet is useless! And now we don't want to offend people in the 1930s? There are things other people have done that benefitted their lives, and that I missed out on - good for them!

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#707

Post by chii » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:38 AM UTC

LeroyRaz wrote: post #481

imgabe wrote: post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

If you have a physist who is at the leading edge of their field you very much do want them teaching. How do you think you get the next generation of great physists? It is similar to how when growing crops, like wheat, you should take the best of your harvest and use it for seed. Historically that is one of the most important and also one of the hardest things to teach farmers. + Many of the greats have loved teaching…

Those greats might not be best at teaching newbies. They are better off spending time teaching their protege, and doing research.

Teaching undergraduates is easily accomplished by another not working on research imho.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#708

Post by parineum » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:39 AM UTC

wyldfire wrote: post #567

imgabe wrote: post #312

Higher education in the US is trying to fulfill so many roles it's unsustainable. - teaching marketable skills so people can get jobs - teaching "how to think" and learning about art and culture - Performing cutting edge research - minor league sports teams The large state schools are trying to fulfill all these conflicting roles. We should probably break them out to separate entities. If you have a physicist who's a…

> Major league sports should create and manage their own feeder leagues to develop players, no reason to cram that into a university. Collegiate athletics emerged as lucrative entertainment, over decades. It's not as if they established sports teams originally in order to make money or to become training ground for pro teams. And good luck getting them to forfeit this willingly. A minor league could show up to compet…

> Ice hockey, too, IIRC.

This is partially true. Most Americans still go the NCAA route the typical Canadian route being the CHL, for 16-20 year olds. Europeans follow a model similar to European soccer leagues.

The CHL offers a year of college scholarship for each year played in the league. I think it's only for the national schools, I'm not exactly sure.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#709

Post by randomdata » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:42 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #464

phkahler wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. I was going to write one but then decided I'm not qualified to speak for farmers. I will say this. Both my grandfathers were farmers. One worked his whole life and died broke. The other invested what he could, and never worked the land a day in my life (that I can remember). He once said that he didnt make his money farming, meaning it was from saving and investing. He rented his land, barn, and equipmen…

Thats doesn't mean we need more farmers. Yes, feel free to say that farmers are payed low. But it remains the same that if they are paid this low, then we don't really need more farmers entering the industry. Instead hopefully less people will join that industry.

As a farmer myself, I agree that there are too many people in the industry, if you want economic efficiency. Frankly, it provides really great money per hour, making software look poorly paid in comparison, but you quickly run out of work to do because there are so many other farmers trying to do the same. Thus, incomes tend to be low when observed on a yearly basis. I don't know many farmers who wouldn't love to take on more work.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#710

Post by wolverine876 » Mon, Mar 21, 2022, 7:42 AM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #628

xeromal wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 1930s, I'm sure the majority of children worked hard lives on farms and other jobs so they were well on their way to realizing the troubles of adulthood.

US was already majority urban by 1930, though not by much. But yes, you are correct that life was harder back then, which made people tougher.

> life was harder back then, which made people tougher

Unintuitively, harder lives don't make people tougher. Intuitively, they make people more exhausted and traumatized. Look at how functional people were back then when they were elderly (though that could be due to other aspects of health). Look at anyone who has had a hard life; they wear down.

Similarly, children, contrary to some pop politico-psychology, generally grow stronger if they feel safer. Unsafe kids are scared to face the world and often never develop an inner sense of security. Trauma leaves wounds that sometimes never heal. Safe kids feel like they can brave the world, and they internalize that sense of safety that their parents model and give them.