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I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

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Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#651
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in lower socioeconomic status and can confirm that the university admissions process was never really taught to us in any meaningful way. Teachers never talked about it, my parents never talked about it, counselors didn't talk about it, etc. Our education was built around testing because if our school got bad testing, then the school would lose funding. Our education was damaged as a result, every teacher t…

> Our education was built around testing because if our school got bad testing, then the school would lose funding. > Getting rid of SATs from my perspective sounds like a fantastic idea. There are two types of standardized tests. The first kind you reference measures the school. They are not used for college admissions. They can affect school funding. The second type of test measures the student. Sometimes a school…

Hm, nah.

Consider this: if the schools weren't dependent on the test scores, then they could use that same energy-for-testing to teach their students methods for improving their SAT scores. I genuinely doubt they'll switch energy, but the fact remains that the requirement to game a test-well-or-lose-funding system by necessity removes education opportunity for students in order to focus on the tests over education, especially for schools in lower income areas because they stand to suffer the most. We're relying on a system that ensures that people stay where they are. Now, if there isn't a correlation between lost education opportunity and SAT scores, then you might be right, but...

Edit: This article goes into the problem in the context of No Child Left Behind and confirms my point: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2015/03/...

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#653
post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worked at three universities. This is pretty insanely accurate. You left out one item though. The main role US institutions are trying to fill right now is: hire new faculty, have faculty pull in 5+ Million dollar grants in order to get tenure. After tenure, pull in multi-million dollar grants each year. Teaching? Never heard of it. OH! That thing the actual customers are paying us for... yes, have graduate st…

Once you have tenure, what’s stopping you from just getting off the grant treadmill? A friend of mine got on it after tenure (art school) because he could finance cool projects of his own design that way. But even in a research university isn’t tenure supposed to protect you from being pushed around by the administration?

Salary mainly. You may keep the job if you're tenured but without the grants, you may not get much in the way of salary. Also, your grad students, postdocs, and resources (lab equipment, computing time, etc) are being paid through grant money so without it you don't have a lab group. Finally, without funding, your department and/or the university can make life exceedingly difficult. Extra teaching, more admin tasks, etc.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#654

Definitely agree that removing the SAT appears to be related to the upcoming supreme court case about affirmative action. COVID was a good reason to delay it for a couple years. But schools are pushing it out further. That makes no sense. It seems the SAT is increasingly considered "racist" because it reveals racial disparities in learning. What's next? Get rid of the driver's license test because it turns that white…

The SAT's past racial bias is still echoing through the nation. There were still test questions based on Very White Things like cotillions and yachting as recently as 40 years ago. The repercussions of those things could be that some person barely missed getting admitted to a university, took a lifetime earnings hit, lived in a poorer town with worse schools, and now their kids who may be very smart and talented also…

That sounds stretched. Smart kids failing because their parents didn't know yachting trivia 40 years ago... And in 4 decades their family couldn't crack open a math book?

The main reason for failing education is not money, it's family attitude towards education. Educational parents get better results than rich parents. Look at how the Asian group is faring. In fact having too rich parents is pulling down the kids.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who or what is Polymatter? Why do you trust them? It would be useful if people said why they trust whatever they are linking to. Random stuff on the Internet isn't worth the time.

Here is another idea of the same theme through a more reputable source (you be the judge) https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/17/us/columbia-university-ra...

Thanks. That article is about a different distortion of college rankings; there are many.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, colleges have found that the SAT produces racial demographics they don’t like. Where does that come from, other than repetition? > look at the LSAT I'm not talking about the LSAT (and bar exam performance isn't a meaningful indicator of much - the great majority of aspiring lawyers pass their bar exams). > Poor white kids have been excluded by the SAT for nearly a century and colleges never took action in respo…

Math, medicine and law don't become any easier no matter how much you avoid testing. At some point they got to know the subjects.

That doesn't disagree with anything said?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#657
post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have worked at three universities. This is pretty insanely accurate. You left out one item though. The main role US institutions are trying to fill right now is: hire new faculty, have faculty pull in 5+ Million dollar grants in order to get tenure. After tenure, pull in multi-million dollar grants each year. Teaching? Never heard of it. OH! That thing the actual customers are paying us for... yes, have graduate st…

Once you have tenure, what’s stopping you from just getting off the grant treadmill? A friend of mine got on it after tenure (art school) because he could finance cool projects of his own design that way. But even in a research university isn’t tenure supposed to protect you from being pushed around by the administration?

You cannot be fired with tenure, which is nice. But you can still move up and down in status. The grants provide supplemental income. You can do work you love enough to take a lower wage than you probably could get in the private sector. There are benefits.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#658
post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok? 1. That’s his job as an investor. Getting one big outlier prediction right makes up for a hundred wrong ones. 2. These predictions tend to provoke interesting debates(that’s probably Sama’s intent here).

1. If it’s his job at being able to predict, he seems to be doing a bad job by being wrong so many times. 2. There’s so many better ways to spark an interesting conversation than throw bs predictions out on Twitter. If his opinion was informed with facts, he could write a blog or (heavens forbid) a Twitter thread detailing what lead him to the conclusion.

To be fair, his post does lead into a Twitter thread. Unfortunately it's a mess of the usual reactionary takes: white people are asked to feel guilty; Asians are discriminated against; nobody wants to hear whiny conservatives on campus. And so: "nearer to collapse than it appears." That's not a falsifiable prediction, of course: how long does it "appear" to take to collapse? A decade, a century, never?

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#659
This thread conflates "boo higher education" with "higher education is on the verge of collapse". If institutions of higher education are discriminating massively against Asians (and it's pretty clear that they are) won't the supreme court ending this practice improve them? This is a reason to be sanguine about college's prospects, not the opposite.

Re: I think US college education is nearer to collapsing than it appears

#660
post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I was told as a grad student that I've never forgotten is, "Nobody has ever won a Nobel prize for having happy students". At the time, I was struggling to keep up with the marking demands of a new (i.e. This was the first year it was taught) course I was TA'ing. I had around a hundred students and each one was generating 10-20 pages of handwritten lab reports per week. Student writing varied from human type…

Pretty similar to my experience TA'ing at a researched focused school. My first semester teaching a lab I was told "No one is remembered for being a good TA" and encouraged to do the absolute bare minimum to get paid so that I could focus on research.

;_; I remember my good TAs...
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