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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

theatlantic.com

701–710 of 727 posts

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#701
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russiagate. Calling 1/6 an "insurrection." White supremacists. Edit: Oh, and how could I forget? Systemic racism.

Russiagate convictions: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/m... Jan 6 has seen a lot of criminal charges, including literally "conspiracy"! https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965472049/the-capitol-siege-t... (seems to refer to https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 )

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#702
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russiagate. Calling 1/6 an "insurrection." White supremacists. Edit: Oh, and how could I forget? Systemic racism.

Russiagate convictions: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/m... Jan 6 has seen a lot of criminal charges, including literally "conspiracy"! https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965472049/the-capitol-siege-t... (seems to refer to https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 )

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#703
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russiagate. Calling 1/6 an "insurrection." White supremacists. Edit: Oh, and how could I forget? Systemic racism.

Russiagate convictions: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/m... Jan 6 has seen a lot of criminal charges, including literally "conspiracy"! https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965472049/the-capitol-siege-t... (seems to refer to https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 )

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#704
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russiagate. Calling 1/6 an "insurrection." White supremacists. Edit: Oh, and how could I forget? Systemic racism.

Russiagate convictions: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/20/17031772/m... Jan 6 has seen a lot of criminal charges, including literally "conspiracy"! https://www.npr.org/2021/02/09/965472049/the-capitol-siege-t... (seems to refer to https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/371 )

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#705
post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 years ago, we didn't have Fox News and the associated persecution-complex outrage machine (altho the 'silent majority' evangelical nonsense of the 70s/early 80s provided the manual)

...and therefore you can't have a conversation about something other than politics?

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#706
post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 years ago, we didn't have Fox News and the associated persecution-complex outrage machine (altho the 'silent majority' evangelical nonsense of the 70s/early 80s provided the manual)

...and therefore you can't have a conversation about something other than politics?

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You might get affordable child care that does not abuse your kids and you might get a school system that teaches them life fine.. but you may not If your response to child abuse, a lack of affordable childcare, and ok schooling is that the children shouldn't exist, you've lost me. > you are essentially gambling with an innocent's life. You lose all bets you don't make. Life is a gamble full-stop so you are always g…

> If your response to child abuse, a lack of affordable childcare, and ok schooling is that the children shouldn't exist, you've lost me. No, the argument is that some children shouldn't exist because some parents cannot afford to be successful parents. It's odd to see such a pro-gambling position. On any other topic, no one would encourage people to make a risky gamble with someone else's life & happiness as collate…

You're not exactly wrong, but accepting that some people should simply give up their claimed right to reproduce means you can easily genocide people by not paying them enough.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#708
post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 years ago, we didn't have Fox News and the associated persecution-complex outrage machine (altho the 'silent majority' evangelical nonsense of the 70s/early 80s provided the manual)

...and therefore you can't have a conversation about something other than politics?

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#709

We're all living that Asian family joke. Parents spend their whole lives waiting for their kids to thank you. Kids spend their whole lives waiting for their parent to say "I'm sorry." That said I've never felt that way about my Mom and Dad. I've faults and problems a plenty but I wouldn't ascribe any of that on them; indeed the best things about me seem to clearly come from them and the worst are just as clearly thin…

In therapy circles and attachment theory land, this is exactly what's supposed to happen when you receive "good enough parenting". Good enough parenting means your parents actually tried and either worked through any of their issues preventing them from giving care to their children, or didn't have those issues in the first place. So the idea goes, you end up developing a relationship based on mutual respect, love, a…

> It's usually difficult for people with decent upbringings to even conceptualize why a child might willingly remain estranged from their family. But there are a lot of people out there with really good reasons to do that.

This sums up how I feel about this topic. I read all these accounts of how people's perceptions of parent-child relationships change after they have kids, or how there's still mutual love between them and their parents despite so-and-so, and I understand.

I am well into adulthood with a stable marriage and career; I've been to therapy, and done all things reasonable to heal from whatever it is I came from. By all accounts I've been pretty successful on that front.

But goddammit, when I think about my parents, I move between seething resentment and gratitude that I decided to cut contact. And this is an improvement.

As you say, people with good enough upbringings can't conceptualize why a child might remain estranged from their family; I'd wager they impose perceptions of their own (good enough) parents when making that judgment.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've ever worked as a camp counselor for rich kids - the term abuse can work out as follows: "Clean up your crap" = "You can't make me, that's abuse, my dads a lawyer." Is asking someone whose had maid service / cleaners to clean up their crap in a group situation abuse? The other stuff is feeling "uncomfortable" or "unsafe" in situations where you are asked to take the most basic responsibilities (ie, turn in a…

Written down and agreed upfront clear principles and responsibilities should help, even with lawyer dads, no?

Actually - I was working internationally. What these kids didn't realize is that where I was - I really was in charge from the locals point of view. Local law enforcement was sometimes a wack and a "spot fine" or pre-trial / charge detention (formal judicial cases took forever/unreliable so this method of on the spot justice/corruption was tolerated).

None of my kids had this happen, but overseas the tolerance for foreigner bad behavior can be low in some cases if there is a perception of disrespect. Some of the rich kids in another group stole some liquor "as a joke". Hahaha. They were jailed and the locals squeezed cash out of parents before parents had to charter a flight to get them out (program required parents to pay repatriation expenses in these cases).

Only real downer culturally at times was treatment of women - the US kids are used to bikinis and the girls are used to agency / freedom as it should be. Locally dress / behavior etc can send a message that generates a metric ton of harassment - and it can be no holds barred even under age. Only thing I really disliked I think and female counselors doubly so - locals would sometimes not respect even the female counselor push back but need the guy to intervene. For trips that were in part about independence building a bummer. My sense over some time though was that this was changing though so by now I suspect probably much much better.

We did have all the paperwork in place of course. But what really works is actually peer pressure. I mean -> it's insane how powerful that is. Kids that age will do almost anything if it's the thing to do based on peer behavior. So you want to get the dynamic going and you are home free if you can.

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