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Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

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Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#701

Post by noisy_boy »

sidr wrote: post #572
WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think trust is the issue, a person coming to you for answers is coming from a place of vulnerability. I've solved this in the past by asking the person if they want a comforting lie or an honest truth. I still provide feedback in both ways but the honest truth path is what is taken by most people who are able to take negative feedback correctly.

Everyone thinks they want the honest truth. Has anyone ever told you they want you to lie to them?

Depends on the phrasing - you don't have to call it "comforting lie" - something to the effect of "I can offer some encouraging points about this if you like or if you want critique, we can do that" would also do. I have had people tell me in the past, "I don't want you to solve it for me, just listen", which was a learning experience.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#702

Post by smeej »

MikeUt wrote: post #673
Sophistifunk wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no irony here. If your plan to make society better is to infantilise group X because you view them as too weak to handle corrective feedback (or compete against group Y) they (as a group) will soon start to lose the benefits of success-selection that come with competition and correcting your course when you get feedback.

> you view them as too weak to handle corrective feedback The article says they don't get corrective feedback not because they're seen as too weak, but because it's too risky to give criticism, since it can be misinterpreted (or misrepresented) as sexism.

Is this actually different?

Isn't receiving what was intended as corrective feedback as though it were sexism a sign of weakness?

If you believed the person you were giving corrective feedback was strong enough to take it in stride and learn from it, there would be no need to worry.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#703

Post by scarmig »

cbozeman wrote: post #691
scarmig wrote: post #548

A female founder acquaintance of mine (who's quite smart and capable) went on a Twitter screed a couple weeks ago. As it turns out, someone else had copied her idea, and her startup now had a competitor. The competitor was also able to raise a solid amount of money despite her being first to market and her having more relevant knowledge of the problem space (by her own estimation). So, this scenario isn't exactly unc…

I feel like the key takeaway here is / was: > her having more relevant knowledge of the problem space (by her own estimation) That sounds an awfully lot like, "We investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong." I rarely try to rely on my own estimation of my knowledge, because I know I can't be objective.

For what it's worth, as a naive outsider who doesn't know much about the other founder, she seemed to have a good argument for why she would.

It's just a bit of a stretch to think that a VC not giving her money must be because he was thinking "oh, she is definitely more competent and knows more about this space than this other founder, but because she's a woman I'm going to cut her out and go with the other guy."

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#704

Post by smeej »

sidr wrote: post #572
WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think trust is the issue, a person coming to you for answers is coming from a place of vulnerability. I've solved this in the past by asking the person if they want a comforting lie or an honest truth. I still provide feedback in both ways but the honest truth path is what is taken by most people who are able to take negative feedback correctly.

Everyone thinks they want the honest truth. Has anyone ever told you they want you to lie to them?

I've definitely said to someone, "Right now, I want you to reassure me about this, even if you don't believe it."

I didn't call it a lie, but yes, that's what I was requesting.

In that circumstance, I believed things would ultimately work out, but my confidence was faltering. I needed to hear my own belief in an outside voice whether that person believed it or not.

I didn't actually need his belief. I already had my own. I just needed him to voice it.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#705

Post by CivBase »

0_____0 wrote: post #592
scarmig wrote: post #548

A female founder acquaintance of mine (who's quite smart and capable) went on a Twitter screed a couple weeks ago. As it turns out, someone else had copied her idea, and her startup now had a competitor. The competitor was also able to raise a solid amount of money despite her being first to market and her having more relevant knowledge of the problem space (by her own estimation). So, this scenario isn't exactly unc…

I remember some comedian pointing out, racism (sexism in this case) drives people crazy. Because it's subtle. Very rarely are people nowadays blatantly racist/sexist, because they get called out for it. But imagine that every time you have an 'off' experience with someone, you end up wondering whether your race or sex had something to do with it. It only takes a couple instances of finding out that that 'off' feeling…

> But imagine that every time you have an 'off' experience with someone, you end up wondering whether your race or sex had something to do with it.

I can't pretend to have any idea what that's like. However, I do know what it's like from the other side, wondering whether the things I say will be misconstrued as prejudice and whether any bad experience I have with someone of a difference race/sex/etc will be used to label me as a bigot.

I don't think I ever thought differently of anyone for their sex or skin color as a kid. Now I'm so worried about offending people that I force myself to be hyper-aware of anyone with those kinds of traits that differ from my own. Maybe it's easy for me to say from my position, but I'm not sure how we'll ever come together so long as we keep highlighting those sorts of differences.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#706

Post by [deleted] »

sooheon wrote: post #667
at_a_remove wrote: post #365

The payout matrix for "give honest advice / don't give honest advice" has changed, radically. Then some people noticed that, and then their behavior changed to match. It isn't punishing anyone, it's adaptation to a new risk. The "Pence Fence" is a defensive strategem and it didn't arise in a vacuum. It is a costly defense, too, so it being kept up is likely worth the cost to mitigate the risk. Most of what comes afte…

Can you elaborate what the pence fence is?

[deleted]

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#707

Post by kleer001 »

Sexism aside I wonder what other identity spheres this kind of trepidation has corrupted valuable feedback in.

Additionally I wonder what other corruption has occurred in productive systems because of these Identity Politics that have been raging to the foreground recently. And finally are these minuses outweighed by the pluses of said politicking?

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#708

Post by Daho0n »

igorkraw wrote: post #223

I'm a bit sad about how eager everyone is jumping on the idea that "candid advice" will always be construed as possibly sexist. I'm from Germany and we are famously blunt, so maybe there is a cultural aspect to this, but to me candor != risk of sexism. If your advice is candid, it also shouldn't leave any ambiguity..."I'm unsure about you doing the pitch because the last N times you froze up and you seem nervous agai…

As a German I think you know the answer but can't see the woods for the trees. It is that most here are from the US and it is worse in the US than in Germany by far. I'm from Denmark and I also see this tendency online with "so and so is true in the US so that's how it is". The Americanization will slowly make this your norm soon too in Germany though, just like everything else.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#709

Post by sneak »

soared wrote: post #697
sneak wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of Americans of any gender would be put off by a lot of very routine and candid professional communications that happen in Germany. I find American English in general to be tending toward the near universal avoidance of direct speech and statements, independent of speaker/listener identity. Importantly the speaker and listener are not consciously aware of this happening. The net result is that you can say liter…

Very interesting to read. I wonder if some of this is due to neutral statements in English tending to carry a negative connotation. If I say "I want to come over tomorrow but I'm not sure if I can make it" - that actually means "I do not want to come over tomorrow". You /can't/ communicate without euphemisms, and trying to will always fail and make you seem like a dick even though you're just being straightforward. T…

You shouldn't lie in a response to an invitation.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#710

Post by robbmorganf »

I'm reading a whole lot of frustrated comments here and totally get where the frustration is coming from. But in a different direction, I wanted to offer a thought for how to improve:

Rule #1: Always ask people if they want feedback before you give it. Do it for men, women and non-binary folks. If you can, give hints about the topic ("hey, would you like feedback about your skills alignment with the problem?").

I've always been amazed at how much better feedback is received by anyone when they've explicitly agreed to hear it.

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