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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#701
post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this whole school choice and insurance choice neoliberal mantra is what has gotten us into this mess to begin with. The entire insurance sector is a huge waste of manpower and essentially just huge dump for the surplus of white collar university graduates that have nowhere to go. There's not a single person on the planet who derives benefits from navigating the trade-offs of byzantine insurance plans, and school choi…

School choice and medical choice are very different. With school choice, parents do incredible amounts of research, and can send their kids to excellent schools wherever they live, or however bad their local school boards are. And yes, ALL parents invest in their kids' success, your (not OP's but generic reader's) stereotypes against minorities aside. It's a relatively efficient market. It benefits from choice + comp…

I'm unclear why poor people should be worse educated than rich people.

A dumb rich person won't get nearly as much benefit as a smart poor person

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With 700€/Month you aren't gonna far anyway, you have enaugh for food and rent , and that's it... Contingent benefits disincentivize people from participating in the economy. People paid to do nothing... do nothing. > For America it's different, America cannot technically afford "BI" because the entirety of the US economy has been built on having 20% of the population living under the poverty line in order for good…

> Contingent benefits disincentivize people from participating in the economy. People paid to do nothing... do nothing. That's, at best, highly debatable. I would like data showing that (or the opposite) > Under any economic regime there will be a poorest 20% at any given time. That's not what "20% of the population living under the poverty line" means. It means that 20% of people don't earn enough to live decently,…

Who decides what it means to "live decently"? Maybe I believe that I can't live decently without a yacht and manservant.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#703
post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the elephant in the room here. It's a basic good, but its price is still very much driven by supply and demand.

America just needs zoning policy that isn't totally broken (i.e. geared towards the rich). Japan has been doing a pretty good job.

> America just needs zoning policy that isn't totally broken (i.e. geared towards the rich). Japan has been doing a pretty good job.

Compounded by nearly 2-3 decades of astonishing population decline, and a 'freeter' type lifestyle for all but the most 'privileged' youth that also helps in reducing access to desirable housing, too. Personally speaking had Fukushima not occurred, I think I would be owner and chef of a Kaiseki kitchen at an Onsen Ryoukan in the Country-side by now given how affordable and plentiful those abandoned compounds are all over Japan.

NIMBY is real and gets the nouveau riche up in arms and drives them out to the polls and releases purse strings for lobbyists like nothing else, but to be entirely honest as a multi-generational Californian: they can keep the Valley.

Its atrociously managed, its old, over-crowded, needlessly expensive and stricken with horrible politically ambitious and greed driven shortsightedness, the homeless problem is a glaring symptom that has clearly proven that neither money nor legislation can solve its core problem.

My family up there divested from their businesses and sold their homes in the area in mid 2000s to move to the South, and while its not perfect it shows that there are is no better way to show your opposition to a system then to just leave.

If many former office jobs and school classes (K-12 as well as University) can be optimized to be done remotely, then I will reluctantly accept that the COVID situation was worth it. Having a population density like seen in New York is not just undesirable (for many reasons) but also a biological hazard. Disruption had to come the housing situation, and I think this could be just as good as anything else in trying to alleviate the damage caused from having remained in an archaic system created to benefit the Land-owning class for doing nothing but being born at a time when housing prices as well as overall Economic health and sound wages were accessible to most in the US.

These land owners don't create wealth, they just consume it off the backs of people far more risk-prone than themselves that still have Utility in the Labor force, and we're thinking they'll ever allow for implementing something that is against there interests? That's a deluded panacea that won't ever be achieved using orthodox methods, like voting for fairer zoning laws.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#704
post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abuse of a dominant position in a market is already forbidden in many countries. I guess that those monopolies would be split to ensure that the market is competitive.

First, some monopolies are monopolies forever - network and utility monopolies. Second, you still have to deal with aggregate monopolies - ie when one societal class has monopoly pricing power over another. You cannot break up these as they are already broken up. The prime example is real estate and land market. Landlords have monopolistic pricing power over tenants. Price for rent is not governed by landlord's costs…

> First, some monopolies are monopolies forever - network and utility monopolies.

Could you expand on this a bit more? Network and utility companies can clearly be broken up. The actual infra can be owned by municipalities.

> Price for rent is not governed by landlord's costs but by what the tenant can bear.

Citation needed. There is competition amongst landlords as long as housing supply is not severely limited. If supply is limited, that is a failing of zoning policy. The flat I just started renting a few months ago was priced on supply-and-demand, not on how much I earn (otherwise the landlord did a pretty terrible job of gouging me because relative to my income I got a good deal). You can look to Japan as a country where zoning policy isn't totally nuts like it is in parts of the US.

We are dealing with monopolies, the current administration notwithstanding. Andrew Yang in particular has a number of thoughts on these issue:

https://www.yang2020.com/blog/regulating-technology-firms-in... https://www.yang2020.com/policies/net-neutrality/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/zoning/ https://www.yang2020.com/policies/financial-transaction-tax/

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#705
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>how do we ensure that rents don't just go up by that amount or wages don't go down by that amount? Two ways to answer this: 1) If you're printing money, then yes, prices will rise, and if price controls are implemented it will lead to shortages (e.g. Venezuela) 2) If you're not printing money, then competition will simply lower the cost. It's the same as today - outside of terrible policies like rent-control, why do…

You have a lot more faith in markets than I do. I don't believe that we've been particularly well served by the housing or health care markets. It's been demonstrated, again and again, that 'more supply will come in' just isn't working for housing. I think we fundamentally disagree, though, which is ok. I see rent control as one mechanism to attempt to decommodify housing (which I'm strongly in favor of). I'm not sur…

>we've been particularly well served by the housing or health care markets.

Healthcare is going to be special. We're OK with a person not getting a Lexus if they can't afford one, but we are deeply uncomfortable with treating, say, cancer surgery the same way. So healthcare will always have a social component.

That's not the case for housing. Housing can be managed the markets just fine, you just need to make sure you don't constrain it a level where it cannot react to demand. Where housing fails, it's always the case of local regulations, from property owners who want to limit supply to keep their house prices up to activist and the local council who will restrict high-density housing development for the dumbest reasons (e.g. if the shadow of the new housing development falling on a playground - true story). You mentioned you're from Seattle - are you sure housing isn't constrained due to crazy progressive municipal policies?

>I see rent control as one mechanism to attempt to decommodify housing (which I'm strongly in favor of)

This is very perplexing to me. We know rent control hurts housing supply, and it hurts people that it purports to help because we have data on this from decades of studying this policy. There is no economist that supports it. I don't understand how it keeps coming back.

>It's been demonstrated, again and again, that 'more supply will come in' just isn't working for housing.

Where? Do you mean places like Seattle or San Francisco which make it almost impossible to build new development? Why wouldn't you look at regulatory policies of those areas before wanting to socialize an entire industry?

>You have a lot more faith in markets than I do.

It's not about faith in anything. Because markets are a messy, chaotic and complicated bottom-up structures where the individual transaction is impossible to predict, but where everything optimizes (at some minima) on a large scale - some people tend to be fundamentally uncomfortable with it. So the alternative is to fix the messiness of the markets by imposing a 'clean' top-down policy where the one true answer is dictated. The problem is that nobody at the top fully understands all the variables of the underlying messiness and hence they always get it wrong. If you take that to the extreme, you end up with a Communist disaster.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 'more supply will come in' just isn't working for housing Curious where you live because in Seattle this has definitely kept the rent prices from growing as fast as in the SFBA. Admittedly these are apartments on the expensive side though, affordable housing is not a priority for developers because it's not as profitable per square foot. Blame {wealth inequality | zoning}, depending on your outlook.

Seattle. And housing prices here are astronomical. My home has nearly tripled in value over seven years.

So why wouldn't developers simply build higher-density housing to maximize this crazy profit per square foot? Why not buy your single-family home, demolish it, and build a multi-family/multi-storey apartment building and maximize the profit from that high-value land? Do they hate money? ... or are there regulatory barriers preventing them from doing that - barriers that are supported by existing property owners, who like their house prices tripling every 7 years.

It must be that they hate money.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#707
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is anecdotal but I haven’t seen guys hanging off garbage trucks in a long time. Around here it’s just one guy with a hydraulic arm on the truck that picks up the cans and dumps out garbage, and he does it very very efficiently. Pretty soon it should be possible to even replace the driver with a self driving truck that goes around pre determined paths in the neighborhood.

If you wanted to do away with garbage trucks you'd build a tunnel system for trash bins that discharge their contents when prompted.

Very dangerous if a child falls in. Will never happen.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, and if they raise wages, they'll need to raise prices. The price level at which it's economical to pay someone wages that incentive them to work as a janitor rather than investing in themselves is the price level at which the janitor cannot afford to invest in themselves without work. I'd buy that the janitor might be a bit better off in this situation, but you haven't solved any critical problems. Your basic inc…

> Ok, and if they raise wages, they'll need to raise prices. No, not necessarily. In fact if they were able raise prices, surely they would have done so already? What they would actually do is either go without a janitor, or go without something else - a coffee machine, or computer upgrades or something. The point is, unskilled labour is currently priced against desperation on the part of the worker. With a UBI it's…

> No, not necessarily. In fact if they were able raise prices, surely they would have done so already? What they would actually do is either go without a janitor, or go without something else - a coffee machine, or computer upgrades or something.

I think you're underestimating the necessity of janitors, but for the sake of arguments, let's switch to another low paid shitty job that's definitely necessary. Say... slaughterhouse workers. A lot of food products are extremely competitive and run on super thin margins. An increase to gross costs means prices must rise or you'll be running a loss on each one. You can't just hand wave that off with coffee machines. Most businesses that aren't fancy tech companies are really cheap when it comes to employee benefits to begin with.

> The point is, unskilled labour is currently priced against desperation on the part of the worker. With a UBI it's priced against the actual benefit to the consumer.

I get that's the point. I contest that this strategy makes any sense. A lot the economy is premised on people doing unpleasant jobs because they require a paycheck to live. Current prices cannot pay for premium blue collar labor. The jobs that can't be moved will need to pay more and raise prices. Anything that can be moved will have massively increased incentive to outsource to another country.

And then you have a real trap. If everyone has a UBI, but prices rise, your UBI is no longer sufficient, but your doubly f*ed because there's fewer jobs in your country because labor is way cheaper elsewhere. So your would-be factory workers don't have a less than basic wage and no factory to work at.

More simply, however, if you recognize that we need these jobs to be done (we do), then you have a much easier option available to you than implementing ubi: raising the minimum wage.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Under the gov't version, if you were healthy, you're "free". You only cost when you actually need the medical treatment. Government insurance is still insurance. It isn't that each individual costs the government $10,000, it's that most cost them nothing and one in ten gets cancer and costs $100,000. Insurance is the same. The large majority of the money isn't going to the insurance company, it's going to healthcar…

I get the impression you're idealising the free market. The numbers[1][2] speak for themselves in proving that universal healthcare is the most affordable way to provide good healthcare. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_h... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_ex... In the UK the NHS (2016) per capita cost was $4,192 (PPP) and in the US the per capita cost was $…

This is the same old tired argument again and again. "European countries have lower costs, therefore socialism is better than capitalism."

There are two problems with it. First, the US system is completely broken. It isn't a free market system, it's a worst of both worlds compromised hellscape. It's like comparing the USSR to Colombian druglords as evidence that communism is a great system. The USSR isn't great, Colombian druglords are just awful.

Second, the European systems rely on the US to fund world medical research through its high medical costs. We're subsidizing them. That makes us look bad, but they're the ones free riding on our system. And it's obviously not possible for the US to pay lower prices by doing the same thing and offloading its medical research costs onto the US. What we could do is make the EU pay more of the R&D somehow -- that could lower our costs for sure, or improve outcomes world-wide because there is more R&D. But what does that look like? Higher costs in Europe, right?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Under the gov't version, if you were healthy, you're "free". You only cost when you actually need the medical treatment. Government insurance is still insurance. It isn't that each individual costs the government $10,000, it's that most cost them nothing and one in ten gets cancer and costs $100,000. Insurance is the same. The large majority of the money isn't going to the insurance company, it's going to healthcar…

I get the impression you're idealising the free market. The numbers[1][2] speak for themselves in proving that universal healthcare is the most affordable way to provide good healthcare. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_h... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_ex... In the UK the NHS (2016) per capita cost was $4,192 (PPP) and in the US the per capita cost was $…

Average life expectancy is a really flawed metric to measure the effectiveness of healthcare systems, because there are a ton of non-healthcare related confounding variables that impact average life expectancy. Anyone that dies early brings down the average life expectancy, and that includes suicides, homicides, drug overdoses, and car accidents. The US has more traffic fatalities per capita than any other Western European nation. The US has more opioid deaths per capita than any other Western European nation. The US has more gun-deaths per capita than any other Western European nation. While each of those problems have their own political causes...none of them have much to do with the underlying healthcare system, so using it as a metric to measure the quality of the healthcare system in question is ill-advised.

All that being said, if we were to use this metric, for the sake of argument...these charts are quite illuminating, but not for the reasons you think.

If you plot them on a graph, you'll find that the most efficient healthcare system is actually one closer to the "idealized market"...in Singapore[1].

Also the comment to which you are replying is strictly talking about "government insurance". "Government insurance" is not the only way to deliver universal healthcare. Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, Singapore all have thriving multi-payer systems. In Switzerland and the Netherlands, ALL insurance is private. In Singapore, while the government covers catastrophic care, 70% of total health expenditures are private. Singapore's approach is actually the closest to what a system might look like if you replaced healthcare-specific targeted subsidies with a UBI — most health expenditure is through compulsory health savings accounts.

The common theme is that there is some degree of government intervention/regulation and subsidy. Having the government be the sole payer is definitely an approach, but it's by no means the only approach, nor even the best approach.

"Universal healthcare" just means that everyone has healthcare, it doesn't necessarily mean that the government provides it for everyone. We have pretty close to "universal food" in most of the developed world, and the vast majority of the food system is delivered through the open market.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/infographics/most-efficie...

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