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The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

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Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, programmers also don't go through a medical school equivalent or residency. We don't take boards. I'm married to a doctor and we were together through her time in medical school and residency. If I had to choose between skill checks in the interviewing process and the 8 grueling years of hell that was med school and residency, I will take option 1 without a second of consideration.

There are developers who went through a master or PhD at a top school, with a similar difficulty and debt to medical school. There are companies who will only hire you if you got a degree and relevant experience. The big tech companies never mention it but most of the workforce had a long education.

I've never seen post-grad requirement for a dev unless it's a cutting edge research position and they need PhD's from the problem domain.

Requiring a master's for a dev position is just a joke and I wouldn't take a company seriously that was asking that.

Above not true for roles like PM, where for better or worse an MBA carries weight.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#702
post #580

This literally happened to me last week. On a Friday night before my girlfriend's birthday they sent me -- without warning -- an assignment that "should take about 8 hours". I told them to give the job to someone hungrier than me which was the politest way of telling someone to stuff it I could think of. The company in question advertises here on HN's "Who's hiring?" threads, but the role was brought to my attention…

But you didn't say how long they gave you to do it. Could you hand in the assignment a week later? I've never been given a homework assignment for a job interview, but I would love it. I absolutely hate the tests they give you on the spot, the last one I did was awful and made me angry! I would much prefer an 8 hour homework assignment. That pressure would be fun, and I get to work with my tools in my comfort zone. I…

> I've never been given a homework assignment for a job interview, but I would love it [...] I spend 8 hours playing video games (over a few days)

The problem becomes, but then when would play videogames?

It's fine to be eager for an occasional puzzle challenge, but don't forget about the opportunity cost. They want 8 hours of your videogame time for something that likely has a low return on that time investment (ie, the homework assignment is [not] productive code; there's no guarantee you get the job as that homework assignment is only input in the process, etc).

That sort of opportunity cost favors the young (with no or small families, and a stronger ability to live on fewer hours of sleep), the eager (passionate for that particular job), and generally those with fewer work/life balance concerns (what if you need those 8 hours to stay healthy or protect your family?).

If you are already employed, you risk burning out by trying to burn the candle at both ends and do unpaid work in your off-hours. There's a possible opportunity cost that your day job's productivity suffers and you potentially lose your job.

Even when unemployed there are opportunity costs at play (if two companies need 8 hours in the next 12, which one do you turn down). The old adage is that unemployment is a full-time job (hunting for prospects, networking, talking to recruiters, dealing with unemployment wage systems, etc), and is stressful enough without adding additional unpaid labor on top of it.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#703
post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my head financial stuff is harder to get into than BigCo's... :) Why do you say you /can't/ get a job at those companies?

It's all about location. Web is the west coast while finance is the east coast.

Let me put it this way, people that came to BigCo's from FinCo's in my experience (I mean, trading/quant, not banking software) generally were 90th percentile+ performers at BigCo's. Don't know about the other direction.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#704
post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our industry's hiring practices are absolutely obnoxious. Agreed. The solution is to not work at a tech company, but instead work in a tech capacity at a real company. - No silly games (before or after hiring). - Better benefits (I'd rather have proper health coverage and a pension than a room full of toys and vaporware stock options). - Immensely more job security (Henry Ford didn't have an "exit strategy"). - Peo…

The problem is that no one gives a shit about code quality at such companies.

If code IS supposed to be treated like a language, ya'll are being equivalent to English snobs.

Yes, bad english can be detrimental: starts wars, malpractice, etc... We just take it for granted.

If code is treated like math, then we can talk about absolutes and good code.

But 90% of us talk about it in the language context, hence why we call it a programming language....

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#705
post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no shame in it. Same thing happened to me last week, and I was furious about it. I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. We're composers, but we're being tested as if we're live concert pianists. Then companies complain that there's a talent shortage! This hurts everybody, and it needs to stop. For my part, I will refuse to participate a…

> I've resolved not to take any more live coding interviews, on the grounds it is uninformative, degrading hazing. Depends on the job. I'm currently hiring and the live coding exercise is a must for the position because I want to see how the person problem solves while under stress. Because stuff happens. My team works on mission critical systems that can have issues that we sometimes must resolve quickly which is ve…

Yes depends on the job, but if it's a stressful environment, you need to train for it. OTJ. That's a management issue, not a coding issue.

Otherwuse these exercises would just paint a broad stroke that handling stress is common & generalized, when in fact it's unique and case by case in most situations.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going to show some vulnerability… this happened to me this week. I’m probably like a lot of you here: professional software developer for 20 years, have shipped countless products in multiple languages / technologies. Work has appeared on tv and print media multiple times. Have generated millions and millions in cost savings and revenue for employers and clients. But I totally failed a technical screen. It’s been…

So a little more on the interview. I've got a laptop setup with eclipse, all rigged up with an integration test and filled out function signatures. I show the interviewee what to press to compile, and the subsequent failing tests. The code builds in it's initial state, but the tests fail. I also show them on the desktop that the original source is squirreled away in case they fat finger and erase everything (I've tot…

Luckily, no one ever customizes their IDE, source control aliases, has wars over emacs versus vim, or uses an alternate keyboard layout.~

(Being forced to use someone else's machine is a developer hell with so many dimensions.)

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#707
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Wouldn't it be funny if the half that didn't respond were the best candidates you heard from, and you threw them away with your take home thing? In my estimation, it's not likely that all of the ones who didn't respond were better than the ones who did, but it's likely that a sizeable portion of them were. They're not going to jump through ridiculous hoops because they don't have to. One time an employer of mine wan…

That's almost like an exercise in economics. There's a middle ground of what the buyer (i.e. the employer) wants and what the seller (i.e. the applicant) wants. Buyer wants all sorts of qualities + a low salary + an NDA and non-compete, seller wants a high salary + a good work place + no NDA or non-compete contracts. Somewhere in the middle both buyer and seller should be satisfied, if one can live without the NDA co…

[deleted]

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So hire everyone who can't function during the interview?

I know several really, really good programmers with pretty intense anxiety. Automatically ruling them out because of a poorly-formatted interview process would be a big mistake.

Could be like Richard Hendricks in Season1 huh?

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#709
post #691
post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that’s what I needed to hear. I’m really glad I retracted my resume. Even though I’m nowhere OP’s level, it felt a bit degrading.

If you're capable of developing software, being offered $15/hr /even without any interview at all/ is just broken. This is not about the interview process, that's just an old fashioned screwjob. I'm really confused by your situation. What are your qualifications and seriously what kind of compensation are you receiving right now if you are employed? If you want to talk, email me at my username at gmail. To put things…

I'm trying to be a fullstack developer and I'm not working at the moment. I also haven't been sending out a ton of applications (about 6 or 7 so far) because I'm enjoying the ability to work freely.

Anyways, check your inbox I'll send you some more details. I'd love to hear your take.

Re: The latest trend for tech interviews: Days of unpaid homework

#710
post #580

This literally happened to me last week. On a Friday night before my girlfriend's birthday they sent me -- without warning -- an assignment that "should take about 8 hours". I told them to give the job to someone hungrier than me which was the politest way of telling someone to stuff it I could think of. The company in question advertises here on HN's "Who's hiring?" threads, but the role was brought to my attention…

> If you expect to take more than 2 - 3 hours of someone's time, you should be paying them.

Do you want to work with team mates who have been vetted over less than 2 hours? I've worked with people who couldn't code, it's not a fun experience.

There are a lot of people who can talk a good talk but can't actually code. This was the reason for the FizzBuzz test (which I dislike, but it was invented to solve a real problem).

My current employer would not be able to do contract-to-hire or a trial contract for legal and policy reasons, and I strongly believe that a homework assignment taking approximately 2 hours, when combined with another 1.5 hours in person provides the best signal of all the methods I've tried. That's a total interview process of 3.5 hours i.e. about half a day. If you can find half a day for an in person interview then you can certainly find the same hours split up differently for homework + in person.

Trying to make it about sexism is crazy. Homework is much more flexible as to when you do it than in person interviews. Just because you're looking after kids doesn't mean you won't be able to take a couple of hours when they're asleep or in school. If doing homework is a problem, then I'm sure doing an inperson is even harder.

Our homework + inperson extension is on a topic related to our real field, not just a compsci quiz (which means it gives you a chance to show off domain knowledge if you want the extra points), allows no frameworks (except testing), produces an interesting artefact at the end, and can be completed in less than 100 lines of functional code plus a smattering of test code (although many will do more, sometimes crazily so - for which they lose marks). There are exhortations in the instructions to keep it simple. You can schedule when you want to work on it yourself, work on it with your own tools and hardware, split the time over a couple of weeks if it's difficult to get a block of time together.

The only real question is the time commitment. I've targeted 2 hours, but many spend around 3 or so, and some spend more on it. Setting an 8 hour challenge for my kind of work woud be entirely unfair to the candidate, unless that was the total time spent on the entire interview process.

I've hired with a number of different processes, and this one takes the least total time for the candidate and seems to have given me the best results.

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