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Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

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701–710 of 1001 posts

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#701

It's not possible for HN to have "no political position" on issues such as tech. As the Amazon Go thread, and this comment from PG demonstrate, the default position - where there is no discussion of race / gender / class / diversity - is for the protections that minority groups enjoy to disappear. Either because no-one thinks to protect them (as white working classes feel has happened to them) or because SV bigwigs s…

I think we can read PG's tweet a little more favorably.

I consider myself liberal, and generally in favor of things such as unions, workers'-rights, and anti-discrimination regulations, that serve to balance power in our society.

That said, I can definitely see an argument that unions are inefficient - they slow down rate of change, introduce barriers to new innovation, and require one-size-fits-all negotiation. This doesn't mean we need to remove unions, just recognize the tradeoffs.

Furthermore, I would myself argue that unions are a response (and a rational one) to an inefficient, asymmetric power structure. i.e., unions are a symptom of a problem, not a problem.

example:

Let's say there's an industry, where in a competitive, open, and rights-respecting market, workers could typically get $15/hr.

If there's a monopoly-employer and un-unioned employees, they can suppress the wage to $10/hr, concentrating profits to the employer. If there's a union, and no monopoly of employers, the union can force the wage to $20/hr, stifling the industry, and possibly preventing new employees from entering the marketplace freely. If the employers and union are at equal power levels, the wage sits around $15/hr, but there's a lot of red tape, and slowed rate of innovation, because of the nature of negotiations.

If you create a company that hires non-union workers, but treats them as well or better as unioned workers would be treated, you should have a competitive advantage.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#702
post #556
post #51

Who decides what's "political"? Are discussions of regulations surrounding Uber political? The ongoing Tesla/dealership feuds? Using machine learning to detect fake news? New immigration policy that impacts H1B tech workers? The impact of Brexit on tech companies? Restrictions on cryptography? I'm split on this: On one hand, firm moderation and keeping things on-topic makes for a good forum for discussion. On the oth…

> here need to be clearer guidelines around what's allowed and what's not. We're happy to clarify (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13108614 ) but it's impossible to draw a precise line. Moderation is about a few core principles and a lot of case-by-case judgment calls, and it's inherently unsatisfying. Whatever rules we have, though, we apply them less rather than more in cases where YC itself or a YC start…

This is amazingly naive. "We apply them less rather than more in cases where YC itself or a YC startup is at issue." You realize, of course, that YC, PG, and SA all drive the tech zeitgeist to some extent or another. News that affects YC itself is all tech and politics, because YC affects these things.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#703
post #480

It's not clear to me what is politics. For instance, I just came across this interesting article from The Brookings Institution: "Another Clinton-Trump divide: High-output America vs low-output America" [1]. It's a look at how the election broke down by county. Clinton won 472 counties, Trump won 2584. The counties Clinton won produce 64% of the country's GDP, with Trump's counties producing 36%. With the exceptions…

But wouldn't this clearly be politics? And is this really necessary for HN?

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#704
post #628

Can we migrate to an open-source alternative to Hacker News already?

I'm curious about the choice of words "open-source" here. What would having the source available change with respect to this "Tell HN"? Something along the lines of no mods? No voting/flagging? Nothing off-topic?

Community operated and moderated. It's amazing how the entire tech community has come together on a message board run by venture capital. It's not a neutral forum. At the very least, a GNU-friendlier alternative would be appreciated.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#705
Technologists have above average wealth, and have influence on the future of technology and society. There are many here. At some point the size and power of a news site increases beyond the point where its just a toy - like it or not (see Facebook).

And with power comes responsibility.

I can understand adjusting the amount of political discussion, but banning it seems like a derogation of responsibility - certainly if the ban were to persist.

Alternatively, if another leak like Snowden's comes out this week, would discussion be prohibited? What if a big tech company was found to be building a Muslim registry? Could you please clarify whether stories that are both technology and political will remain?

> What Hacker News is: a place for stories that gratify intellectual curiosity and civil, substantive comments.

If that's the clear extent of the mission, that's a pity.

I'd argue there was always a subtext on HN, whereby hackers giving prominence to their intellectual curiosity is justified because this path also eventually produces Good Stuff, technology which solves real problems, and eventually creates wealth and makes people's lives better. I would thus recommend against drawing a bright line around 'gratify intellectual curiosity'.

If we're just clicking stories purely because it gratifies us, how's it different to just eating candy? It'd be a pity if that was all the community is intended to be.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#706
post #62

I find this experiment a bit strange/disturbing, avoiding political subjects is a way of putting the head in the sand. HN is a community of hackers and entrepreneurs and politics affects these subjects one way or another wether we want to avoid it or not, and are an important component of entrepreneurial and technical subjects. It might be fine if HN was a scientific community, but it is not the case, and even then p…

I find this experiment a bit strange/disturbing, avoiding political subjects is a way of putting the head in the sand.

To support your point, there's a press release circulating from Google and Facebook right now. They've launched a program to share hashes (fingerprints) through a database identifying offending ("extremist") content so it can be more efficiently removed from the web. Yet, we aren't allowed to comment on this - I just posted it and the story was flagged.

There's a huge difference between saying "No more gratuitous flamebait about the US Election", and "no technical discussion permitted about any topic that could possibly be controversial."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110823

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#707
post #699
post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I too find this to be an argumentum ad absurdum. > The values of Hacker News are intellectual curiosity > and thoughtful conversation. > For one week, political stories are off-topic. That said, I can support: > Those things are lost when political emotions seize > control. This ban should be on political emotions seizing control; not on intellectual conversation surrounding political stories.

In theory, yes, of course. In practice, that distinction doesn't hold up—not on the public internet and not at scale. The discussions are tribal. I'd be happy to say "No Tribalism on HN" but how would we enforce it and how could anyone comply? Tribalism is not something people have conscious control over.

For many, HN is a source of news, not just conversation.

Perhaps a reasonable compromise could be to 'close' comments on such stories, rather than removing the links altogether?

In re your tribalism update - is 'tribalism' itself an issue? I don't think I personally mind someone being 'tribal' so long as their arguments are polite and reasoned.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#708
post #62

I find this experiment a bit strange/disturbing, avoiding political subjects is a way of putting the head in the sand. HN is a community of hackers and entrepreneurs and politics affects these subjects one way or another wether we want to avoid it or not, and are an important component of entrepreneurial and technical subjects. It might be fine if HN was a scientific community, but it is not the case, and even then p…

> avoiding political subjects is a way of putting the head in the sand

It's more like going on a week long vacation to a tropical island and deciding not to check email/go online for the entire time.

The rest of the world will still be there when you get back, and you won't have missed anything substantive by unplugging while you were away.

Re: Tell HN: Political Detox Week – No politics on HN for one week

#710
post #62

I find this experiment a bit strange/disturbing, avoiding political subjects is a way of putting the head in the sand. HN is a community of hackers and entrepreneurs and politics affects these subjects one way or another wether we want to avoid it or not, and are an important component of entrepreneurial and technical subjects. It might be fine if HN was a scientific community, but it is not the case, and even then p…

Where there are people, there is politics.

But that doesn't mean there should be only one kind of website.
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