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Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

arstechnica.co.uk

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Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#71

Post by lectrick »

jrockway wrote: post #46
lectrick wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, 1) Apple was the first to use USB even though it wasn't an Apple tech 2) Apple was the first to use Thunderbolt even though it wasn't an Apple tech 3) Apple is now the first to use USB 3 Type C (aka "USB-C") even though it wasn't an Apple tech (although rumor has it that Apple engineers had a lot of input on it) The technology you're probably confusing it with is FireWire, which WAS Apple tech.

> 3) Apple is now the first to use USB 3 Type C Didn't the Chromebook Pixel 2 come out slightly before the MacBook?

Color me corrected.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#72

Post by lloeki »

melling wrote: post #8
imaginenore wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple using a standard connector, dream on.

Apple led the way with the original USB in the late 90's. PC companies and users dragged their feet. "We don't like change." It took almost 5 years to gain traction. A couple months ago on HN I asked about PC's getting the new USB C connector and no one seemed in a hurry. It won't be a standard until PC's ship with at least one port.

> It won't be a standard until PC's ship with at least one port.

Phones (and tablets) getting a Type-C port may very well coerce the PC market into faster adoption.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#73

Post by ZenoArrow »

Roritharr wrote: post #58
FreakyT wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, provided that the standard provides for some degree of backwards compatibility. I think it's great how a USB 3.0 drive will still work on a USB 1.0 computer from 1999. Sure, it'll run slower, but it'll work , and even without an adapter! With Apple's previous various high-speed ports (Firewire 400, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt), they have no backwards compatibility -- from FW 400 -> 800 you could use an adap…

The point is, there will be Plug-Compatible Devices that are not Backwards compatible, as evidenced by the Thunderbolt Port switching to it. Of course other Devices will follow that come without external power supplies and other features that don't allow for graceful degradation. Thats my point. If it all were backwards compatible as it has been until now, things would be great, but that door has been shut now.

> Of course other Devices will follow that come without external power supplies and other features that don't allow for graceful degradation. Thats my point.

I don't get your point.

The Type C connector will support USB 3.1, which AFAIK is backwards compatible with older versions of USB.

The Type C connector will also support Thunderbolt 3 (and the datatypes that Thunderbolt supports, aside from perhaps DisplayPort 1.3).

Support for the protocols is done at the chipset level. All Type C connectors in Intel computers will support everything that the Type C currently supports, as the support is built in to the Alpine Ridge chipset. Other device makers will support all the USB 3.1 stuff at a minimum out of the gate, and potentially support Thunderbolt down the road also.

Where exactly is the backwards compatibility issue? Do you mean forward compatibility?

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#74

Post by atonse »

izacus wrote: post #69
atonse wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The logic is actually simple: If you're trying to plug in a USB device, just plug it in. It'll work, regardless of whether it's TB 3 or just plain USB 3. (update: this is probably for 99% of cases since USB is much more common than TB) If you're trying to plug in a thunderbolt 3 device, it's very likely you know if you have thunderbolt.

Will I? I've seen software developers (tech people!) return their MacBooks to Apple store because they wouldn't drive a Thunderbolt display (with the issue of course being that older MBs had only DisplayPort output, which is physically identical). This will cause confusion (especially with added confusion around DisplayPort standard support over the USB connector) and it's unfortunate that a new connectivity standard…

Yea this is a valid point, but since TB 1 and 2 carried DisplayPort signals, there's no technical reason why Apple had to limit TB displays to just TB ports (that I'm aware of... happy to be corrected). They should've just worked.

But these ports won't have that problem. Although to be honest, the new Macbook has a pure USB3 port and not TB3 :) So Macbook owners might still have that issue. Dammit Apple!

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#75

Post by timdorr »

outworlder wrote: post #57

So, will Apple finally be able to refresh the Thunderbolt Display? I got an old one I want to sell before it gets obsolete. I guess the time is now. Edit: "Thunderbolt 3 integrates USB 3.1, optional 100W power delivery, 5K @ 60Hz display." Optional power delivery? Optional nowadays just mean "will be removed before even reaching production"

Whenever this makes it's way to the Macbook Pro (probably next year?), this will definitely enable them to make the upgrade. Right now, they don't have any TB3-capable computers, so no one would want to buy that monitor.

And I guess the sticky part will be all those 12" Macbook's with Type C connectors that wouldn't work with such a display...

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#76

Post by Eric_WVGG »

lebrad wrote: post #52
jrockway wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3) Apple is now the first to use USB 3 Type C Didn't the Chromebook Pixel 2 come out slightly before the MacBook?

Yes, the MacBook was released April 10, but the Chromebook Pixel was already shipping USB type-C in March. Someone in the other Thunderbolt type-C thread also mistakenly claimed that Apple was the first company to use type-C.

I believe the MacBook was technically the first USB-C device announced (and rumors about it go all the way back to last year), but the Pixel shipped earlier.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#77

Post by jrockway »

lectrick wrote: post #71
jrockway wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3) Apple is now the first to use USB 3 Type C Didn't the Chromebook Pixel 2 come out slightly before the MacBook?

Color me corrected.

It's not a big deal. No doubt both products were being developed long before they were announced, so Apple and Google were both ready to be the early adopter.

Now I'm just waiting for something to connect to the Pixel via a Type C Type C connector, other than another Pixel ;)

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#78

Post by tw04 »

Roritharr wrote: post #58
FreakyT wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, provided that the standard provides for some degree of backwards compatibility. I think it's great how a USB 3.0 drive will still work on a USB 1.0 computer from 1999. Sure, it'll run slower, but it'll work , and even without an adapter! With Apple's previous various high-speed ports (Firewire 400, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt), they have no backwards compatibility -- from FW 400 -> 800 you could use an adap…

The point is, there will be Plug-Compatible Devices that are not Backwards compatible, as evidenced by the Thunderbolt Port switching to it. Of course other Devices will follow that come without external power supplies and other features that don't allow for graceful degradation. Thats my point. If it all were backwards compatible as it has been until now, things would be great, but that door has been shut now.

Just so we're clear, you'd rather have to carry around 10 different dongles just so you can know, visually, what a port is capable of?

I'm sorry - when I buy the laptop, I look at what the port can do, and I remember it. If I'm in a meeting and I have to use someone else's, I ask if they know. If they don't, I try it, and if it doesn't work, we move on.

I can't come up with any scenario in which this is a bad thing, outside of sheer laziness or poor planning.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#79

Post by freshyill »

lectrick wrote: post #35
izacus wrote: post #14

Hmm, I don't understand the description fully - does that mean that it can happen that I can get a device with USB-C plug, plug it into computer and it won't work because the device uses Thunderbolt 3 and the computer isn't an Apple? Or will all Thunderbolt 3 devices be able to scale back and communicate with devices over USB if the controller is not available? How will that work with displays over USB-C connectors?…

For the record, 1) Apple was the first to use USB even though it wasn't an Apple tech 2) Apple was the first to use Thunderbolt even though it wasn't an Apple tech 3) Apple is now the first to use USB 3 Type C (aka "USB-C") even though it wasn't an Apple tech (although rumor has it that Apple engineers had a lot of input on it) The technology you're probably confusing it with is FireWire, which WAS Apple tech.

This reminds me that Apple didn't work on it alone. I have a friend whose dad was an engineer at IBM. Back in high school (or maybe early college—late '90s at any rate), I was at his house one time and he unrolled a huge schematic… it was some kind of controller chip for Firewire. He's actually on a bunch of the patents for it.

Re: Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps

#80

Post by EddieRingle »

Eric_WVGG wrote: post #76
lebrad wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the MacBook was released April 10, but the Chromebook Pixel was already shipping USB type-C in March. Someone in the other Thunderbolt type-C thread also mistakenly claimed that Apple was the first company to use type-C.

I believe the MacBook was technically the first USB-C device announced (and rumors about it go all the way back to last year), but the Pixel shipped earlier.

Actually, the Nokia N1 tablet was announced late 2014, shipped in China earlier this year, and featured a Type C port.
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