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Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

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Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#71

Post by Tiksi »

JonathonW wrote: post #6
zxyzzxxx wrote: post #3

I was disappointed over the lack of links in a web(!) article, so I did some research over this comment: Poland notes that since then, Lyme has become more widespread and is now the most common tick-borne disease in the country. Dr. Gregory Poland works in Mayo Clinic which is based in Minnesota. Here are statistics for Lyme disease in that country: http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/diseases/lyme/stati... http…

Here are the nationwide statistics for Lyme disease in the US: http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/index.html And some links to the CDC sites about other tick-borne diseases prevalent in the US: http://www.cdc.gov/ticks/diseases/ (most of these also include statistics on incidence and geographic distribution)

I was curious to see the rate of spread so I made this gif from the images in your first link:

http://paste.click/DyTMLM

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#72

Post by phkahler »

maxerickson wrote: post #25
phkahler wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> People who had irrational fears of vaccines claimed harms from the Lyme vaccine that probably were not caused by the vaccine. No, people who actually got the vaccine claimed they got arthritis from it. Weather those claims are true or not remains unverified. Of course the clinical trials showed no such side effects, but I doubt they were even looking for that (if I'm really cynical, do you even trust them not to h…

So if the trial was not corrupt then it must have been incompetent? The FDA and CDC investigated and did not find reason to believe that the vaccine caused arthritis, but the unnamed people who reported the arthritis are more believable than all those public servants? Come on.

>> So if the trial was not corrupt then it must have been incompetent?

In a sense yes. Clinical trials are not great at finding things like that. Phase 1 is all about determining toxicity - in other words, how much of a substance can people tolerate. Later phases are for determining dosage and effectiveness - how well does it treat a condition, or in this case how well does it immunize a person against infection. If side effects are not reported during the trials or are of low frequency, they may not get noticed at all. In fact, the FDA is starting to look at all-cause mortality for some drugs. For example, does taking something to lower cholesterol actually increase life expectancy (vs does it lower cholesterol which theoretically increases life expectancy). Do you really think they've been looking at all age-related effects (arthritis is one) of taking a vaccine?

I'm not saying the claims against it here are real, but that it is unfair to lump those people into the general category of anti-vaxxers. Especially since they were supposedly vaccinated.

Also, companies don't generally pull something from the market unless there is a serious reason to do so. Vioxx is thought to have killed 500k people before it was pulled from the market: http://www.theweek.co.uk/us/46535/when-half-million-american...

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#73

Post by abakker »

lnanek2 wrote: post #66
abakker wrote: post #39

FWIW, having been exposed/infected with Lyme disease 3 times, any vaccine would be welcome. Really. I can't stress that enough. Due to a variety of factors, including deer overpopulation(1), the Lyme disease infection rate in Deer Ticks in New England is ridiculously high. While I was undergoing treatment for the 3rd time, my doctor indicated that probably 25% of ticks in that region carry the disease. I'd be all for…

You do realize you can just ask your doctor for an acne antibiotics prescription and be immune to Lyme disease, right? Doctors routinely do this for people who work in dangerous areas for Lyme disease, etc..

I didn't realize this. Somehow, this doesn't seem like a good idea to basically be on Doxycycline forever...

Most antibiotics are not effective agains Lyme, since it is a spirochete, and can end up in your spinal fluid.

Last time I had Lyme, I took Doxycycline for 6 weeks. that drug is pretty damn awful to take all the time.

Can you show any data that doctors are prophylactically prescribing antibiotics to people for Lyme? If that is the case, I'd assume that "living in connecticut" is a sufficient risk factor?

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#74

Post by maxerickson »

phkahler wrote: post #72
maxerickson wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if the trial was not corrupt then it must have been incompetent? The FDA and CDC investigated and did not find reason to believe that the vaccine caused arthritis, but the unnamed people who reported the arthritis are more believable than all those public servants? Come on.

>> So if the trial was not corrupt then it must have been incompetent? In a sense yes. Clinical trials are not great at finding things like that. Phase 1 is all about determining toxicity - in other words, how much of a substance can people tolerate. Later phases are for determining dosage and effectiveness - how well does it treat a condition, or in this case how well does it immunize a person against infection. If…

Be sure to read the after report on the vaccine, linked in a cousin comment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9613520

Especially the stuff about the VAERS database, which tracks/looks for patterns in reported side effects over time...

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#75

Post by baddox »

clarky07 wrote: post #68
baddox wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't decided on a hierarchy. I asked why I should expect the FDA to be more reliable than the drug companies.

because they aren't for profit? their only reason for existing at all is to keep harmful things from being approved for sale. I'm by no means saying the FDA is perfect or infallible, far from it. Just that it's super easy to rank them above the drug companies in reliability as to a drugs safety and efficacy.

I don't see why profit incentive is obviously a worse way to get reliability than the incentives of politicians and FDA employees.

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#76

Post by brazzledazzle »

feybay wrote: post #70
bsder wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do anti-vaccine people get so upset when told to produce factual evidence? The problem is that anti-vaccine sentiment is NOT harmless. Anti-vaccine sentiment means we now have diseases killing children that were effectively eradicated 20 years ago. Anti-vaccine sentiment means that we don't have a Lyme disease vaccination because the cost of fighting anti-vaxxers exceeds the profit from selling the vaccine. So, i…

The attitude seems a bit out of place but I understand your position more now. Thank you.

>The attitude seems a bit out of place

Not if you have children.

Re: Why Your Dog Can Get Vaccinated Against Lyme Disease and You Can’t (2012)

#77

Post by brazzledazzle »

baddox wrote: post #75
clarky07 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because they aren't for profit? their only reason for existing at all is to keep harmful things from being approved for sale. I'm by no means saying the FDA is perfect or infallible, far from it. Just that it's super easy to rank them above the drug companies in reliability as to a drugs safety and efficacy.

I don't see why profit incentive is obviously a worse way to get reliability than the incentives of politicians and FDA employees.

Does every thread have to devolve into a debate about the merits of libertarianism?
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