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Sabbath mode

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Re: Sabbath mode

#71

Post by anotherevan »

seszett wrote: post #66
anotherevan wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me, when I was thirteen, we visited some friends of my parents, in Pennsylvania, who were Mennonites, but there was an Amish community near by and we would see people in the typical garb as well as horse and carts. Once story our friends told us, is that Amish are not allowed to own a house with electricity connected to it. So they never make the final payment on their bank loans, so they never technical…

> no matter what belief or religion you observe, be it Christian, Jew, Buddhist or Atheist, there will always be those that follow the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law when it suits their own interests. I object to you including "atheist" in this list, as atheism is exactly the opposite of that, it's not like an organized religion where you can follow the spirit of the law or not. It just means you be…

It's funny. I knew someone was going to have _exactly_ that objection, which is why I purposely why I wrote, "BELIEF or religion" in order to try and be inclusive and not get sidetracked from the main point.

Take a large enough group of people in any category, and you're going to find the artists, the lawyers, the zealots, the leaders, the followers, the selfish, the altruistic, the devout, the sticklers, the lackadaisical and everything else.

Maybe you just proved my point. :-)

Re: Sabbath mode

#72

Post by seszett »

anotherevan wrote: post #71
seszett wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no matter what belief or religion you observe, be it Christian, Jew, Buddhist or Atheist, there will always be those that follow the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law when it suits their own interests. I object to you including "atheist" in this list, as atheism is exactly the opposite of that, it's not like an organized religion where you can follow the spirit of the law or not. It just means you be…

It's funny. I knew someone was going to have _exactly_ that objection, which is why I purposely why I wrote, "BELIEF or religion" in order to try and be inclusive and not get sidetracked from the main point. Take a large enough group of people in any category, and you're going to find the artists, the lawyers, the zealots, the leaders, the followers, the selfish, the altruistic, the devout, the sticklers, the lackada…

Well, my objection was not on the "belief" part, it was on the "letter of the law" part.

Atheism is just not something that has laws that can be interpreted or not. You can't be a "devout atheist" or a "non-practicing atheist", or practice parts of atheism but not others, it makes absolutely no sense. Atheism is by definition a binary property.

If you wanted to list different categories including non-religious ones, talking about national laws or vegetarianism would have been pertinent in a way that atheism was not.

Re: Sabbath mode

#73

Post by ars »

bryondowd wrote: post #37
mjs wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they actually explain on their website why they do this? I've spent some time in the past looking without success.

Here's a theory. If the site had an issue, they would be unable to do anything about it that day. Could be too much of a liability, so they shut it down. Or maybe I'm applying too much thought to it.

If that was all it was they could easily hire a non-Jew to monitor it.

Re: Sabbath mode

#74

Post by ars »

kps wrote: post #59
chimeracoder wrote: post #5

Somewhat related: B&H, an electronics store in New York owned by Hasidic Jews not only closes its brick & mortar store on Saturdays, but its website as well: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/ Screenshot for anyone looking at this after 8:30 EDT today: https://i.imgur.com/XvZHDXA.png

Their main competitor, Adorama, is also owned by Hasidic Jews, but lets people file web orders, considering it sufficient to not processes those orders until later.

It's clear you are not allowed to transact business on the Shabbat. But is your computer allowed to? Not so clear.

Different Rabbi's have ruled differently, that's why they are different. Some say don't take any transactions at all, other say it's fine to collect the info, but don't actually bill.

Letting the computer serve web pages is fine though, computers don't have to keep the Shabbat. The issue of business is that it's really you collecting the money, not the computer.

Re: Sabbath mode

#75

Post by ars »

StavrosK wrote: post #39
mikeash wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Jewish response to this that I've seen is pretty sensible: if God didn't want there to be loopholes then there wouldn't be any.

The same can be applied to everything, so God wants there to be sin. If God wanting sin to exist means that sin is fine, why are the loopholes necessary? Just sin. If God wanting sin to exist doesn't mean that sin is fine, then loopholes may also not be fine, even though they exist.

You completely missed the point.

God allows sin to exist so that you the person don't do it, as commanded. If God made sin impossible then how can you reward people for following the commandments?

The loopholes are different - God did not say "don't try to find loopholes, God instead made very specific commandments, with clear holes in them".

You are mixing physical impossibility with carefully studying and following the commands.

Re: Sabbath mode

#76

Post by anotherevan »

seszett wrote: post #72
anotherevan wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny. I knew someone was going to have _exactly_ that objection, which is why I purposely why I wrote, "BELIEF or religion" in order to try and be inclusive and not get sidetracked from the main point. Take a large enough group of people in any category, and you're going to find the artists, the lawyers, the zealots, the leaders, the followers, the selfish, the altruistic, the devout, the sticklers, the lackada…

Well, my objection was not on the "belief" part, it was on the "letter of the law" part. Atheism is just not something that has laws that can be interpreted or not. You can't be a "devout atheist" or a "non-practicing atheist", or practice parts of atheism but not others, it makes absolutely no sense. Atheism is by definition a binary property. If you wanted to list different categories including non-religious ones,…

Respectfully, I disagree that you cannot be a devout atheist, but I think we are digressing.

Certainly national or government laws are applicable to my point of people who will follow the letter of the law, but find every little loophole they can if it benefits them, even if it harms others, and those that follow the spirit or principle in-which the law was enacted, sans loopholes.

Re: Sabbath mode

#77

Post by [deleted] »

anotherevan wrote: post #76
seszett wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, my objection was not on the "belief" part, it was on the "letter of the law" part. Atheism is just not something that has laws that can be interpreted or not. You can't be a "devout atheist" or a "non-practicing atheist", or practice parts of atheism but not others, it makes absolutely no sense. Atheism is by definition a binary property. If you wanted to list different categories including non-religious ones,…

Respectfully, I disagree that you cannot be a devout atheist, but I think we are digressing. Certainly national or government laws are applicable to my point of people who will follow the letter of the law, but find every little loophole they can if it benefits them, even if it harms others, and those that follow the spirit or principle in-which the law was enacted, sans loopholes.

[deleted]

Re: Sabbath mode

#78

Post by ars »

seszett wrote: post #72
anotherevan wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny. I knew someone was going to have _exactly_ that objection, which is why I purposely why I wrote, "BELIEF or religion" in order to try and be inclusive and not get sidetracked from the main point. Take a large enough group of people in any category, and you're going to find the artists, the lawyers, the zealots, the leaders, the followers, the selfish, the altruistic, the devout, the sticklers, the lackada…

Well, my objection was not on the "belief" part, it was on the "letter of the law" part. Atheism is just not something that has laws that can be interpreted or not. You can't be a "devout atheist" or a "non-practicing atheist", or practice parts of atheism but not others, it makes absolutely no sense. Atheism is by definition a binary property. If you wanted to list different categories including non-religious ones,…

> You can't be a "devout atheist" or a "non-practicing atheist", or practice parts of atheism but not others, it makes absolutely no sense.

Sure you can. You can believe God exists, but decide, like an atheist, not to follow any rules because you don't think God cares. You can believe God exists and cares, but did not actually make any rules. You can Believe God is actually the laws of nature and is omni-everything, but not intelligent. You can believe God made the big bang but otherwise left the world alone (so there are no laws to follow).

Even "devout" atheists still have to believe in something that made the big bang. Some just ignore the topic, others think "we'll figure it out", others feel "whatever made it is outside the universe and thus of no concern to me", other feel "I only care about proven things, unproven things I ignore".

> Atheism is by definition a binary property.

As you can see from my list there are a tremendous number of shades of gray here. Like any religion there are multiple branches of atheism.

Re: Sabbath mode

#79

Post by ars »

darklajid wrote: post #45
reuven wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the world of Jewish law, in which it's considered acceptable to find ways around rules. For example: Jews aren't allowed to eat leavened food, known as "chamets," (e.g., bread) on Passover. We're also not allowed to own leavened products. What do you do with all of the food that you bought before Passover? In theory, you have to throw it out, which would be a huge waste of money. The solution is to sell th…

This, by the way, is a huge problem for a German expat in IL (back in DE now) during Passover. Not only do they hide bread, there's a certain golden drink that is just as off limits in all the 'following' supermarkets and that's quite interesting. (I kid. Yes, you don't get bread and beer, in theory. Tel Aviv has lots of shops that aren't Jewish or don't care or .. so it's mostly a sight to be seen and a way to explo…

Look for gluten free beer, many are (or can be) kosher for Passover.

Re: Sabbath mode

#80

Post by ars »

gweinberg wrote: post #44
judah wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm Jewish and religious, but not Orthodox; I don't worry about sabbath mode as I have no problem turning on an oven during shabbat; it's not work. That said, if you ask Orthodox Jews, they will say it's not circumventing the laws about shabbat. Rather, it's keeping the laws of shabbat -- avoiding all forms of work -- while still living in the modern world. To circumvent the law would be to find a way tha…

Well, maybe. I don't understand the argument that you are "doing work" when a light automatically comes on for you in the first place. I can see arguing that opening a refrigerator is work, or that it isn't, but I can't see coming to a different conclusion if a light comes on when you open it. I would have made a crappy rabbi.

> that you are "doing work"

That's because work is not the correct translation. A better translation is "creative activity", i.e. creating things, like light.

God stopped creating the world on the Sabbath, so Jews also stop creating things (and there is a specific list of what is included).

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