Live data from Hacker News

To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

npr.org

71–80 of 134 posts

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems odd to use polio as the example of a vaccine success story, while leaving out the recent resurgence of polio that's been caused by Obama using vaccines as part of his secret assassination program. Also not mentioned, the fact that government vaccination programs in Africa are thought to be one of the key elements behind HIV becoming a global epidemic. Or the fact that vaccine makers are frequently indemnifie…

This is really hard to take. I think you should seek medical attention and I mean that in the most respectful way possible. Do you not find the fact that you "know" about this alleged "secret assassination program" even partially contradictory?

We found Osama bin Laden using a Pakistani polio vaccination program as a screen and that was highly secretive until it's role was leaked. That's not something you can dispute, the rest of it may be craziness though.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#72

Is it not better for overall herd immunity for nature to take its own course (i.e., let people with poor immunity die off). I mean, if herd immunity is the argument here, then why not go the whole hog?

If you read the article you'll realize that the reliance on herd immunity wasn't due to 'natural' poor immunity. The kid was recovering from treatment and that's what caused the 'poor immunity' -- but I guess it is easier to ignore such little details and advocate death for anyone who isn't fortunate enough to be as healthy as you are ....at this moment in time.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#73
post #19

Do any of you religiously stay up to date on your boosters to stay fully immune to these diseases? Do you advocate shutting down the borders, prosecuting people to the fullest extent of the law that are found illegally in this country, and overall taking every effort to prevent illegal immigrants into the country where we can't control their movements amongst the population and have no history of their medical condit…

> If third world diseases are popping up again in this country, maybe we should be looking at the unregulated flow of immigrants, and not generally shitting all over affluent, intelligent individuals with healthy children.

I don't think it was impoverished illegal immigrants spreading it around at Disneyland.

Wealthy LA schools' vaccination rates have gone lower than South Sudan. Folks from Mexico etc. have seen these diseases in action and are generally quite good at getting vaccinated. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/wealthy-la...

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really hard to take. I think you should seek medical attention and I mean that in the most respectful way possible. Do you not find the fact that you "know" about this alleged "secret assassination program" even partially contradictory?

We found Osama bin Laden using a Pakistani polio vaccination program as a screen and that was highly secretive until it's role was leaked. That's not something you can dispute, the rest of it may be craziness though.

I mean it takes about 30 seconds of googling to verify everything that I said, e.g.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_HIV/AIDS

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/health/cia-vaccine-ruse-in...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/wlf/2014/10/30/ebola-vaccine-and...

But no, apparently anyone who actually reads books and/or the news is crazy.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#75
post #27

If it was my son and he couldn't be vaccinated for a few months I'd simply hold him out of school until the vaccinations could be administered. I feel for the child and his family, it's a horrible thing that happened to them, but talk about solving a simple problem with an activist response. This is how we end up with a ridiculous number of laws and regulations. If we should legislate that every kid in a public schoo…

The thing that bothers me isn't the need to vaccinate, but the fact that the list of vaccinations continues to get longer. Well, it isn't the length of the list; it's simply that I'm not worried about all of the diseases on the list. My main disagreement is chicken pox. Yes, I understand that there are serious chicken pox cases, but they're incredibly rare. Whoever made the decision to include the chicken pox vaccine…

The chicken pox vaccine is included to prevent shingles. You will be long gone by the time your child is a senior citizen and vulnerable to the relapse but it's a horrible experience for the elderly.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#76
post #11

Some people view their right to not vaccinate, not circumcise, have a home birth of their son and then home-school him, to be an essential religious freedom protected by the first amendment, no different than their right to be a conscientious objector of military conscription. This is a far more complex issue than it appears. Don't dismiss it derisively, as if only an idiot could disagree with you. (Not speaking to a…

No, I dismiss it out of hand. Circumcision, home birth, etc blah blah blah ... this is a poor argument. Whether you are circumcised or your mother had a home birth has not affect on others that I am aware. If those silly examples did have such effects on others then sure they should be measured in the same way.

Religious beliefs can logically be made of exactly the set of any possible utterance. A religious belief can easily be that you don't believe people of a certain race should exist or what have you. Do we call that "complex" issue and just let be simply because it is the result of a religious utterance? No, that's ridiculous. In order to have a functioning society we must be pragmatic and not limit the scope of how religious utterances affect society as a whole.

As far as your "conscientious objector" example, do you seriously think that in a situation where a truly significant percentage of people held that view AND it was tolerated by society that a country such as the US with its constitution that you are citing could exist? Sure, since it is an insignificant number then it is accepted and has no appreciable effect on society but if it meant that the country would not be able to sustain a military, things would be quite different.

Things are more complex but not because we can simply cite religious utterances willy-nilly but because we want to sustain societies and there must be a level of cooperation among individuals.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#77
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your decisions on circumcision and home birth do not affect my infant child's ability to live. Your decision on vaccination does.

Actually, as long as your child is normal, unlike the child in this article who cannot be vaccinated, then your child should be fine. This was only a case because one child had a medical reason to not be medicated, but in consequence, you know, that child could also get other people sick, and heaven forbid there are two special exceptions in one school.

Actually, vaccinations do not 'take' 100% of the time, so there are kids who were vaccinated, but are still not immune.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#78
post #11

Some people view their right to not vaccinate, not circumcise, have a home birth of their son and then home-school him, to be an essential religious freedom protected by the first amendment, no different than their right to be a conscientious objector of military conscription. This is a far more complex issue than it appears. Don't dismiss it derisively, as if only an idiot could disagree with you. (Not speaking to a…

I think you're being downvoted for two things: 1. Conflating things like circumcision and home schooling with vaccination. While there may be an argument for circumcision and against home schooling, it is a far cry from the arguments that support vaccination and the direct effect that vaccination has on the global - not just local - community. 2. The suggestion that religious freedoms extend beyond a single person. I…

In Denmark and Sweden, circumcision is banned because it is considered genital mutilation.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#79
post #4
post #2

Mockery and ridicule are powerful tools. This is a good application for them.

Mockery and ridicule do not change people's minds. People who chose not to vaccinate their children only retreat further from vaccination if you use mockery or ridicule. If your aim is to protect children by increasing the numbers of vaccinated children it's important not to use mockery or ridicule. Those are the wrong tools.

They can, in fact, change people's minds over the long run. Although more at the population level rather than for specific individuals who already hold ridiculous beliefs.

" Once upon a time, there was a racist tree. Seriously, you are going to hate this tree. High on a hill overlooking the town, the racist tree grew where the grass was half clover. Children would visit during the sunlit hours and ask for apples, and the racist tree would shake its branches and drop the delicious red fruit that gleamed without being polished. The children ate many of the racist tree's apples and played games beneath the shade of its racist branches. One day the children brought Sam, a boy who had just moved to town, to play around the racist tree. "Let Sam have an apple," asked a little girl. "I don't think so. He's black," said the tree. This shocked the children and they spoke to the tree angrily, but it would not shake its branches to give Sam an apple, and it called him a nigger. "I can't believe the racist tree is such a racist," said one child. The children momentarily reflected that perhaps this kind of behavior was how the racist tree got its name. It was decided that if the tree was going to deny apples to Sam then nobody would take its apples. The children stopped visiting the racist tree. The racist tree grew quite lonely. After many solitary weeks it saw a child flying a kite across the clover field. "Can I offer you some apples?" asked the tree eagerly. "Fuck off, you goddamn Nazi," said the child. The racist tree was upset, because while it was very racist, it did not personally subscribe to Hitler's fascist ideology. The racist tree decided that it would have to give apples to black children, not because it was tolerant, but because otherwise it would face ostracism from white children. And so, social progress was made. "

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#80
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but I think you're missing the point here. It would be OK if you were to refuse vaccinations and only you had to bear the costs of that decision: You get sick, you die, the end. That is not the case here. There are, potentially, huge external costs to your decision. You may get sick and infect others with poor immune systems. Other people might die. I think a good comparison here would be parents who expose their…

But how do you quantify it? How much harm is caused to herd immunity by 1 more child not getting vaccinated? What is the expected value of that -- the probability that the disease for which the vaccine is available actually occurs in such a way that the voluntarily-nonvaccinated person contracts it and then passes it on to someone who is involuntarily nonvaccinated? How does the expected value of that harm (probabili…

Fortunately we have these things called "science" and "math" and we have no trouble quantifying these things. Or are you suggesting that there is literally only ONE child in the entire world that is not vaccinated? I'm not sure this is making any sense, to be honest. We have a lot data about times when vaccines did not exist. We have a lot of data about what happened after there was widespread vaccinations. We also have data now about significant numbers of people following an actress' decision to not vaccinate and the resulting emergence of infections.

I don't think anyone is being irrational or hyperbolic. I think it is irrational to compare antivaccinationism with anticircumcisionism. That is just outlandish.

Post reply on HN