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To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

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Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#61

Post by perlgeek »

chrisau wrote: post #42

One thing confuses me. Why are parents of vaccinated kids so terrified of unvaccinated kids?? Does vaccination work or not? If my kids are vaccinated, doesn't that mean they won't catch the disease if they encounter it? Or, at the worst, get a mild dose. If vaccination works, why do we care that a small minority aren't vaccinated?

Vaccination rely on the immune system to work, so in situations where the immune system breaks down, or is overloaded, vaccinations stop being reliable. Like with auto-immune disorders, or after heavy chemotherapy (as in the OP).

I also know of a case where a child got an illness it was vaccinated against due to a generally weak immune system (induced by a heart disease and several surgeries).

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#62

Post by shirro »

hackaflocka wrote: post #33

Is it not better for overall herd immunity for nature to take its own course (i.e., let people with poor immunity die off). I mean, if herd immunity is the argument here, then why not go the whole hog?

We tried that approach for millenia but sadly young people with poorly developed immune systems and old or sick people with compromised immune systems kept dying and we decided as a society to do something about it because some of us have kids and parents we love.

Then a bunch of selfish ignorant hippies decided, based on their limited experience of living in a society protected by vaccination, that disease was a problem for poor foreign people and they didn't need it. While an outbreak might kill off the DNA of these people and their offspring and improve the gene pool it might also do some collateral damage. There are some legitimate reasons people have not been vaccinated and as vaccination simply strengthens the immune response it is more effective for some people than others.

You would hate to run into a coughing wheezing infected family of alternative medicine believers on the week you took a shot depressing your immune system to fight your crippling auto-immune disease or protect your transplanted organ from rejection regardless of your vaccination status.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#63

Post by fr11 »

chrisau wrote: post #42

One thing confuses me. Why are parents of vaccinated kids so terrified of unvaccinated kids?? Does vaccination work or not? If my kids are vaccinated, doesn't that mean they won't catch the disease if they encounter it? Or, at the worst, get a mild dose. If vaccination works, why do we care that a small minority aren't vaccinated?

Your assumption that vaccination is binary is wrong. And your last question, you don't seem to care or know about immunocompromised people.

So: - vaccination isn't perfect in preventing diseases - some people who get vaccinated aren't immune. - in some cases, vaccination may reduce disease strength but not prevent the disease. More unvaccinated kids means greater transmission threat, i.e. greater chance of an illness that, while not as bad, can still be unpleasant. - Afraid parents may have relatives who are immunocompromised, or may be immunocompromised themselves. Vaccinated people may act as short-term carriers, even if they are immune, and unvaccinated kids are more likely to act as a source, so the combination of these can cause immunocompromised people to get sick - Same as previous, but with children too young to be vaccinated (younger siblings)

Immune compromise can come from AIDS, sure, but also cancer, transplant therapy, and other causes.

Yes, some of the fear may be unreasonable - probably being stressed out and sick isn't enough immune compromise to let you get measles (though that's probably) - but enough of it isn't.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#64

Post by chias »

chrisau wrote: post #42

One thing confuses me. Why are parents of vaccinated kids so terrified of unvaccinated kids?? Does vaccination work or not? If my kids are vaccinated, doesn't that mean they won't catch the disease if they encounter it? Or, at the worst, get a mild dose. If vaccination works, why do we care that a small minority aren't vaccinated?

First, to answer your question: that's not how vaccination works - a vaccine is not 100% effective. So if you get your vaccination, you maybe still have a 5% (just pulling that number out of the air) chance of not being immune, at which point anybody else who has the disease or is a carrier for it is dangerous to you. It's not that you get 5% sick, it's that you have a 5% chance of getting 100% sick.

Second, to address this question in the context of the article that you're commenting on, the child in question is not vaccinated.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#65

Post by dinkumthinkum »

Alex3917 wrote: post #39
WhitneyLand wrote: post #12

In the name of science and our wellbeing, please direct anyone you know who has good faith concerns to the NOVA episode Calling The Shots: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xm9mZ9j-oQ It's very accessible, and doesn't simply dismiss those who are anti-vaccine. Of course as with many NOVA episodes this one is fascinating regardless of your viewpoint.

It seems odd to use polio as the example of a vaccine success story, while leaving out the recent resurgence of polio that's been caused by Obama using vaccines as part of his secret assassination program. Also not mentioned, the fact that government vaccination programs in Africa are thought to be one of the key elements behind HIV becoming a global epidemic. Or the fact that vaccine makers are frequently indemnifie…

This is really hard to take. I think you should seek medical attention and I mean that in the most respectful way possible. Do you not find the fact that you "know" about this alleged "secret assassination program" even partially contradictory?

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#66

Post by aethr »

chrisau wrote: post #42

One thing confuses me. Why are parents of vaccinated kids so terrified of unvaccinated kids?? Does vaccination work or not? If my kids are vaccinated, doesn't that mean they won't catch the disease if they encounter it? Or, at the worst, get a mild dose. If vaccination works, why do we care that a small minority aren't vaccinated?

Vaccination is not a 100% guard against infection, but it has a substantial success rate.

However some individuals cannot be immunised, such as the child linked in the article who could not be immunised due to a weak immune system. Also, children under the minimum age to be safely vaccinated rely on herd immunity to stay safe. Having everyone in the community vaccinated makes it much less likely that these infections will spread from outside and put the weaker members of the community at risk.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#67

Post by threatofrain »

bronson wrote: post #14
pzxc wrote: post #11

Some people view their right to not vaccinate, not circumcise, have a home birth of their son and then home-school him, to be an essential religious freedom protected by the first amendment, no different than their right to be a conscientious objector of military conscription. This is a far more complex issue than it appears. Don't dismiss it derisively, as if only an idiot could disagree with you. (Not speaking to a…

Your decisions on circumcision and home birth do not affect my infant child's ability to live. Your decision on vaccination does.

Actually, as long as your child is normal, unlike the child in this article who cannot be vaccinated, then your child should be fine.

This was only a case because one child had a medical reason to not be medicated, but in consequence, you know, that child could also get other people sick, and heaven forbid there are two special exceptions in one school.

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#68

Post by ceejayoz »

chrisau wrote: post #42

One thing confuses me. Why are parents of vaccinated kids so terrified of unvaccinated kids?? Does vaccination work or not? If my kids are vaccinated, doesn't that mean they won't catch the disease if they encounter it? Or, at the worst, get a mild dose. If vaccination works, why do we care that a small minority aren't vaccinated?

> Why are parents of vaccinated kids so terrified of unvaccinated kids?? Does vaccination work or not?

Vaccines don't always take. These people depend on herd immunity - high rates of vaccination in the general population - for protection. Then there are people like the one in the article, kids who cannot be vaccinated. Some have allergies to vaccine ingredients, some have had their immune systems destroyed by chemo. Others are simply too young to have gotten certain vaccines that are given later in life.

> If vaccination works, why do we care that a small minority aren't vaccinated?

Because it only works when enough people get it. 90-95% for many diseases is required, and there are some populations in California where the rates have dropped to the 60s.

edit: Actually, dropped to the 30s-40s, it seems. http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/09/wealthy-la...

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#69

Post by [deleted] »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #65
Alex3917 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems odd to use polio as the example of a vaccine success story, while leaving out the recent resurgence of polio that's been caused by Obama using vaccines as part of his secret assassination program. Also not mentioned, the fact that government vaccination programs in Africa are thought to be one of the key elements behind HIV becoming a global epidemic. Or the fact that vaccine makers are frequently indemnifie…

This is really hard to take. I think you should seek medical attention and I mean that in the most respectful way possible. Do you not find the fact that you "know" about this alleged "secret assassination program" even partially contradictory?

[deleted]

Re: To Protect His Son, a Father Asks School to Bar Unvaccinated Children

#70

Post by pzxc »

stevenjohns wrote: post #46
pzxc wrote: post #11

Some people view their right to not vaccinate, not circumcise, have a home birth of their son and then home-school him, to be an essential religious freedom protected by the first amendment, no different than their right to be a conscientious objector of military conscription. This is a far more complex issue than it appears. Don't dismiss it derisively, as if only an idiot could disagree with you. (Not speaking to a…

I think you're being downvoted for two things: 1. Conflating things like circumcision and home schooling with vaccination. While there may be an argument for circumcision and against home schooling, it is a far cry from the arguments that support vaccination and the direct effect that vaccination has on the global - not just local - community. 2. The suggestion that religious freedoms extend beyond a single person. I…

Thanks for trying to explain, but I don't think you're right. I think the downvotes are a reflexive action for a lot of people. (I'm guilty of this, too. - Maybe we all should take a few more seconds before downvoting something we disagree with if it's meaningfully contributing to the discussion)

Specifically, (1) I am comparing them, but I am not conflating them. I never said they were all the same thing, I just said they were all viewed as protected religious actions by some people. And (2), as I mentioned in my other reply, nonvaccination does not have a direct negative impact on those around you. It does have an indirect negative impact, but so does secondhand smoke, wood smoke from a wood fireplace, smog from living in an urban area, or just the risk from driving a car. You can't really declare nonvaccination to be indisputable evil without comparing the probabilities to actions and circumstances that may be just as harmful but which we allow.

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