Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford • Hacker News Board

Re: Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford

#71

Post by swatow » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:07 AM UTC

clarkm wrote: post #6

The newsletter from The Fountain Hopper (who appears to have discovered this) has some more interesting details: When you apply to Stanford, your application gets assigned at least two admissions 'readers.' FoHo knows you get a third (specialized) reader if you're a legacy or a 'minority' (though we're not too sure how that's defined). We also think you get an additional reader if you're an athlete or development kid…

I thought that affirmative action was a well established part of almost all university admissions. Seems disingenuous of them to put minority in scare quotes, when affirmative action is not something that universities are coy about talking about.

Re: Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford

#72

Post by swatow » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:10 AM UTC

gcb0 wrote: post #51

stfu wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

development kid (i.e. you donated $$$) Anyone got any numbers on that? What does it take to become a development kid...

if they get another reviewer for that category, i can guarantee you that all that person will do is open an excel sheet, order by donation amount per family, and write the position your family is at. So i doubt donating the minimum will do you any good.

Actually I've heard from sources I consider reliable, that there is a specific number, that people know, that you have to donate to guarantee entry of you child. It's really the logical conclusion of considering these factors in admission.

Re: Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford

#73

Post by michaelochurch » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:12 AM UTC

rab_oof wrote: post #22

michaelochurch wrote: post #11

This has the potential to be really devastating, and not because of a few stray lawsuits (if that) that won't go anywhere. It threatens to put the most powerful brands in this society on trial. People understand that there's some socioeconomic corruption in the process, but still have the idea that admissions are 85-90 percent academic. If contrary information gets out there, it could have a major effect. What will b…

Seems a bit conspiratorial sensationalist. There's probably some subtle bias (humans are fallible, impossible to be purely objective) common to reviewers that could be brought to light with large-scale stastical analysis. Admissions have a tough job because they are inundated with candidates that appear good but the signals of quality, if known, would tend to be easily simulated... Defeating their use.

I don't care that much what admissions offices do, to be frank about it. If they want to put bigoted "holistic"/nonacademic bullshit into their admissions processes, then that's about #43,207 on my concerns list. I don't have kids so I'm at least 18 years from this being my issue and the whole fucked-up mix will be different by then (better? worse? who knows?) I don't think the fault is mostly with the admissions offices themselves. The academic signals they get are not always reliable; high-school grades are hard to standardize, and the SAT is pretty preppable and doesn't go high enough on the math. (The SAT-M should have harder problems that extend it out to ~1000-1100. Or AMC/AIME scores can be given weight in admissions.) But right now, the SAT is too preppable and the relative lightness of academic merit in the admissions process isn't the officers' fault. They are, as you've noted, working with crummy data. In order to believe they're doing better than they would at a dartboard, they have to convince themselves to "see things" in a bunch of 17-year-old strangers.

What would be of value is to reduce the importance of these brands in the world at-large. It's not that I give a damn either way about Stanford or what it does. I do think the pedigree whoring that has crept into "tech" has been to its detriment. Twenty years ago, Silicon Valley was much less pedigree-obsessed. You didn't need a Stanford degree to raise capital. These days, we see pedigree being the most important factor in the Valley determining who gets to be a founder and who is merely "Engineer #2" on 0.1% of a $5M company, and we see absolute shit founders like Spiegel and Duplan tapping into that private welfare system. A bit of reversion-to-truth in the power given to brands might be a good thing... not only for the world, but also for elite universities, which would be pushed in the direction of using academic merit again, because the mystique they get in admitting rich idiots and making admissions appear "holistic" would be blown. That would be good for them, because it would force them to admit better students.

Re: Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford

#74

Post by rhizome » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:21 AM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #52

jacobolus wrote: post #34

> At least one student has received the records, and said he was surprised by what he got back: several hundred pages, including a log of every time his electronic identification card had been used to unlock a door, [...] It seems totally unnecessary to indefinitely store every door swipe. Sure, store the swipes used to access the rare book room or the chemistry lab for 6 months or a year, but there’s no reason for e…

Look at it from this way, its probably more work to go back and delete entries that really don't take up much disk. Heck, collecting is easy, setting up periodic purges, archives, and such, usually gets pushed to another phase.... which may never come. another side is, its both good and bad. You can see patterns and alert to changes. You could also use it to prove someone wasn't where others claim and so on. If your…

setting up periodic purges, archives, and such, usually gets pushed to another phase.... which may never come.

True, but like collecting, it's easy.

Re: Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford

#75

Post by barry-cotter » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:28 AM UTC

swatow wrote: post #71

clarkm wrote: post #6

The newsletter from The Fountain Hopper (who appears to have discovered this) has some more interesting details: When you apply to Stanford, your application gets assigned at least two admissions 'readers.' FoHo knows you get a third (specialized) reader if you're a legacy or a 'minority' (though we're not too sure how that's defined). We also think you get an additional reader if you're an athlete or development kid…

I thought that affirmative action was a well established part of almost all university admissions. Seems disingenuous of them to put minority in scare quotes, when affirmative action is not something that universities are coy about talking about.

Minority is in scare quotes because they have to be the right minorities. East Asians and South Asians don't count.

Re: Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford

#76

Post by barry-cotter » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:38 AM UTC

driverdan wrote: post #27

WalterBright wrote: post #25

> “The things they write, it’s clear that they never expect them to be read,” said the Fountain Hopper staff member. “They’re very frank.” I guess that'll now change. It'll become like what employers do when asked about a former employee's job performance - name, rank and serial number only. The admissions committee may also become closed door meetings, with nobody allowed to take written notes or minutes. Verbal onl…

> I guess that'll now change. Why? So long as they don't do anything illegal in the selection process they shouldn't have to worry about anything. This is only for people who get accepted, not rejects.

If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.

- Cardinal Richilieu

Things that seemed perfectly innocent at the time can very easily come back to bite you on the ass later. Donating to the wrong political campaign (Brendan Eich), being a part of the wrong political party (the Hollywood Six), overestimating how fast public attitudes to sex will change (the 60's supporters of NAMBLA who found it expedient to renounce them later).

If everything is anodyne consensus bullshit you can't blame anyone without blaming everyone. So all the real decisions get made somewhere there are no written/recorded notes.

Re: Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford

#77

Post by swatow » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 4:43 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #75

swatow wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that affirmative action was a well established part of almost all university admissions. Seems disingenuous of them to put minority in scare quotes, when affirmative action is not something that universities are coy about talking about.

Minority is in scare quotes because they have to be the right minorities. East Asians and South Asians don't count.

I understand that, and agree to some extent, and yet universities don't claim to give preference to East Asians or South Asians (actually they discriminate against these groups, but that is another matter). Usually universities would call Blacks and Hispanics "historically underrepresented groups" or something similar.

Re: Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford

#78

Post by spiritplumber » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 5:14 AM UTC

I tried the "rejection rejection letter" joke with Stanford after applying and being rejected (2009). I ended up working on a project with a Stanford prof for six months after that. It was fairly fun, and it let me decide that I didn't want to do grad school, so win-win there.

History is made by those who show up. If you're told to not bother showing up, SHOW UP ANYWAY!

I never had to escort a security person out of a building, either (although that happened at a Best Buy in 2006, but that's out of the scope of this article).

Re: Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford

#79

Post by gefh » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 5:45 AM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #11

This has the potential to be really devastating, and not because of a few stray lawsuits (if that) that won't go anywhere. It threatens to put the most powerful brands in this society on trial. People understand that there's some socioeconomic corruption in the process, but still have the idea that admissions are 85-90 percent academic. If contrary information gets out there, it could have a major effect. What will b…

Maybe they even stack rank.

Re: Students Gain Access to Files on Admission to Stanford

#80

Post by zaroth » Sun, Jan 18, 2015, 6:59 AM UTC

kevinwang wrote: post #53

zaroth wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"On the Common App used by most top colleges, applicants are asked to check a box waiving their right to ever see the recommendation letters written by their high school teachers and counselors. But students who did not check the box can get copies of those, too."

although if I recall correctly, it seemed obligatory to check that box in order to get our recommendation letters sent through Common App.

Sounds like a dark pattern.